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Using the hyper-partisan guardian opinion piece as evidence of anything is laughable. It is quite clear that many here don't want to understand those that voted

Using the hyper-partisan guardian opinion piece as evidence of anything is laughable. It is quite clear that many here don't want to understand those that voted Leave. Instead they are quite happy to build a straw-man.

cafxx 7y ago
I'm not really trying to use it as evidence of anything. You picked a citation, I picked another one. Furthermore, as mentioned, I agree with you on the reason not being money. Regarding your other point, I honestly think there's nothing profound to understand but feel free to prove me wrong with concrete examples and no hand-waving or out-of-context citations. Demagogues with agendas have existed for a long time, they are nothing new. So has scapegoating. No-one in their right mind will claim that the EU is perfect, but the result of simplistically asking people to make a black-and-white decision about something so incredibly complex, and with so many unknowns, that almost no-one is in a position of fully understanding had the consequence of throwing the baby out with the water. And all because of a razor-thin-basically-within-uncertainty margin in the results. Obviously, as laughable as this may be, it is a valid choice - and we will all have to live with its consequences. I - for one - can't wait to get Scotland back in the EU.
- uncle_j 7y ago
  If nobody can truly understand the EU how can you hold anyone or anything accountable? You've just made half of the sovereignty argument for me. As for Scotland joining the EU. Even if Scotland does become independent (it won't), the EU wouldn't let an independent Scotland in. > In order to join the EU you've got to have a budget deficit of 3% of GDP or less or be obviously (which allows for some fudging) moving in that direction. And Scotland, now that oil has plummeted, simply is not there. It's difficult, given the intertwining of British and Scottish accounts to get it exactly right but reasonable estimates have the Scottish alone budget deficit at 8 to 10% of GDP. https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/06/26/the-problem-with-scotlands-desire-to-be-in-the-eu-they-wouldnt-be-accepted-as-members/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/06/26/the-prob... Scotland cannot sustain itself at all on its own. The SNP run Scotland poorly (and it is in their interest to do so) so it would have to go under massive austerity the moment they go independent.
  - cafxx 7y ago
    > If nobody can truly understand the EU how can you hold anyone or anything accountable? You've just made half of the sovereignty argument for me. Hmm that's not really what I wrote: the decision was about leaving the EU, so the not understanding part referred to "leaving the EU", not to the EU itself. You are still at square one, argument-wise. As for Scotland, everyone knows that countries that want to join has to comply with common rules. Other countries had to go through the same problems. If they want to comply, I am sure they will find a way. When that happens, they will be welcome back in the EU.

cafxx 7y ago

I'm not really trying to use it as evidence of anything. You picked a citation, I picked another one. Furthermore, as mentioned, I agree with you on the reason not being money. Regarding your other point, I honestly think there's nothing profound to understand but feel free to prove me wrong with concrete examples and no hand-waving or out-of-context citations. Demagogues with agendas have existed for a long time, they are nothing new. So has scapegoating. No-one in their right mind will claim that the EU is perfect, but the result of simplistically asking people to make a black-and-white decision about something so incredibly complex, and with so many unknowns, that almost no-one is in a position of fully understanding had the consequence of throwing the baby out with the water. And all because of a razor-thin-basically-within-uncertainty margin in the results. Obviously, as laughable as this may be, it is a valid choice - and we will all have to live with its consequences. I - for one - can't wait to get Scotland back in the EU.

uncle_j 7y ago
If nobody can truly understand the EU how can you hold anyone or anything accountable? You've just made half of the sovereignty argument for me. As for Scotland joining the EU. Even if Scotland does become independent (it won't), the EU wouldn't let an independent Scotland in. > In order to join the EU you've got to have a budget deficit of 3% of GDP or less or be obviously (which allows for some fudging) moving in that direction. And Scotland, now that oil has plummeted, simply is not there. It's difficult, given the intertwining of British and Scottish accounts to get it exactly right but reasonable estimates have the Scottish alone budget deficit at 8 to 10% of GDP. https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/06/26/the-problem-with-scotlands-desire-to-be-in-the-eu-they-wouldnt-be-accepted-as-members/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/06/26/the-prob... Scotland cannot sustain itself at all on its own. The SNP run Scotland poorly (and it is in their interest to do so) so it would have to go under massive austerity the moment they go independent.
- cafxx 7y ago
  > If nobody can truly understand the EU how can you hold anyone or anything accountable? You've just made half of the sovereignty argument for me. Hmm that's not really what I wrote: the decision was about leaving the EU, so the not understanding part referred to "leaving the EU", not to the EU itself. You are still at square one, argument-wise. As for Scotland, everyone knows that countries that want to join has to comply with common rules. Other countries had to go through the same problems. If they want to comply, I am sure they will find a way. When that happens, they will be welcome back in the EU.