4 ms·

Rather bizarre the article implies direct ships from Cornwall to the middle east. Surely much more likely a trading network, where things change hands multiple

Rather bizarre the article implies direct ships from Cornwall to the middle east. Surely much more likely a trading network, where things change hands multiple times before reaching destination, probably with key trading hubs. In fact the tin was found off the coast - just as likely to have been on route to somewhere else.

chippy 7y ago
From the article: "Given the limited technology at the time and the lack of roads, the most plausible way for the ingots to have reached modern-day Israel was by sea" From the paper: "Direct contacts between the British Isles and the Eastern Mediterranean are not assured at present, while inter-regional and international trade networks between the latter and northern and central Europe seem to be well documented for the second half of the 2nd millennium BCE [145–148]. " https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0218326 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...
wtracz 7y ago
There has always been speculation that there was a Phoenician connection to Cornwall, but not a lot of archeological evidence. This stemmed from things like Cornish place names having an unusual number of z's (a Phoenician letter) in them, and other similarities.
- jaratec 7y ago
  Can you point me to the information sources for this theory?
- gbear605 7y ago
  I don’t want to discredit this, since I don’t know your source, but linguistically that seems quite unlikely for a consonant introduced three thousand years ago to have influence on the modern Cornish place names. Three thousand years ago, the Celtic languages hadn’t even split from proto-Celtic, so any influence on Cornish should have also had influenced on the rest of the Celtic languages. In addition, the sound /z/ is a very common one across languages (so it does indicated Phoenician influence), and they didn’t have a script then to write the place names (so the orthographic letter z doesn’t mean anything).
  - mprev 7y ago
    I’m not an expert so forgive what might be a naive question. Even if the languages had not split, could there still not be regionalised influences on place names?
    - gbear605 7y ago
      That’s true, but the long time change leaves it quite unlikely that the names would leave enough of a remnant of a particular sounds that you could point to a Phoenician influence.
jmorse2 7y ago
Biblical sources describe tin as being sourced from Tarshish [0], a remote island that traded with the Phoenician naval merchants in Tyre. Plus as wtracz' sibling comment indicates there's a potential Phoenician connection with Cornwall, it isn't especially unlikely. [0] https://www.blueletterbible.org/esv/eze/27/12/s_829012 https://www.blueletterbible.org/esv/eze/27/12/s_829012
- narag 7y ago
  Tarsis is thought to be refering to Cádiz in Spain. Cádiz was founded by phoenicians (if you visit, make sure to check the archeological museum [0]) to trade with the lost kingdom of Tartessos. Tartessos is placed in the Guadalquivir estuary by Rufus Festus Avienus' Ora Maritima, but its exact location is unknown. There are some efforts to pinpoint it using satellite images, because its ruins could be buried under the sand. https://www.visit-andalucia.com/one_post.php?id=111 https://www.visit-andalucia.com/one_post.php?id=111
mmikeff 7y ago
I haven't got the book to hand but have read of Moorish pirates kidnapping fishermen from their boats around the Lizard peninsula and selling them into slavery. If true then the idea of ships travelling directly may not be so far fetched. (edit - in the 1600s though)
ocschwar 7y ago
Britain and Wales don't have a lot of evidence for a Phoenician presence, but interestingly, some place names on the west of the island have Semitic names, and those places make sense as locations where Phoenicians would be allowed to land to trade for the tin but not allowed to venture inland. Most interesting is Echri Island in the Severn river. It's the most inland island in the river, making it the last island a ship would try to land on if forbidden to land in the mainland. And E-kh-R is the Semitic root for the word "last." (A-kha-ron in Hebrew.) While I'm at this, it's no secret that coastal cities in Spain have Phoenician names: Barcelona, Malaga, Cartagena and Cadiz. Cadiz comes from "gader," meaning "boundary", and the Phoenician colonists there were charged with making sure nobody except Carthaginians would be allowed to sail west of there (and then on to Britain.)
- dotancohen 7y ago
  > While I'm at this, it's no secret that coastal > cities in Spain have Phoenician names Spain itself, España, comes from "Ei hashafanim" אי השפנים or "Island of bunny/hyrax", which once were abundant there.
  - asveikau 7y ago
    I think this is one theory among several: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispania#Etymology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispania#Etymology One must also likely compare the proposed root with Latin Hispania rather than directly with modern España.
CydeWeys 7y ago
Prior to the invention of the railroad, all bulk goods (including food and non-precious metals like tin) could essentially only be traded long distance via ship. It simply isn't practical to move them via animal-drawn carts; the animals cost too much, they eat too much, it takes too long, and the roads weren't there. Rome, for example, was supplied by an unbelievable number of ships' worth of food every day. It would have starved without that ocean access; there's not enough nearby land to be used as farmland to grow all the necessary food in the pre-railroad era.
- JoeAltmaier 7y ago
  Tin was very valuable. In fact most often we find high-value product have travelled long distances. Like jewelry, decorative items. Is tin one of these?
- btilly 7y ago
  Even after the invention of the railroad, it is cheaper to sail from Los Angeles through the Panama Canal to New York than to send the same load cross country by train. Railroads are the cheapest form of land transportation. But boats are cheaper still.
thrower123 7y ago
I agree, it seems more likely to me that it operated similarly to the principles that held the Silk Road together. Almost no one did a Marco Polo and went all the way from the Mediterranean to Peking; instead most of the trade was bucket-brigading goods from one market town to the other.

chippy 7y ago

From the article: "Given the limited technology at the time and the lack of roads, the most plausible way for the ingots to have reached modern-day Israel was by sea" From the paper: "Direct contacts between the British Isles and the Eastern Mediterranean are not assured at present, while inter-regional and international trade networks between the latter and northern and central Europe seem to be well documented for the second half of the 2nd millennium BCE [145–148]. " https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0218326 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...

wtracz 7y ago

There has always been speculation that there was a Phoenician connection to Cornwall, but not a lot of archeological evidence. This stemmed from things like Cornish place names having an unusual number of z's (a Phoenician letter) in them, and other similarities.

jaratec 7y ago
Can you point me to the information sources for this theory?
gbear605 7y ago
I don’t want to discredit this, since I don’t know your source, but linguistically that seems quite unlikely for a consonant introduced three thousand years ago to have influence on the modern Cornish place names. Three thousand years ago, the Celtic languages hadn’t even split from proto-Celtic, so any influence on Cornish should have also had influenced on the rest of the Celtic languages. In addition, the sound /z/ is a very common one across languages (so it does indicated Phoenician influence), and they didn’t have a script then to write the place names (so the orthographic letter z doesn’t mean anything).
- mprev 7y ago
  I’m not an expert so forgive what might be a naive question. Even if the languages had not split, could there still not be regionalised influences on place names?
  - gbear605 7y ago
    That’s true, but the long time change leaves it quite unlikely that the names would leave enough of a remnant of a particular sounds that you could point to a Phoenician influence.

jmorse2 7y ago

Biblical sources describe tin as being sourced from Tarshish [0], a remote island that traded with the Phoenician naval merchants in Tyre. Plus as wtracz' sibling comment indicates there's a potential Phoenician connection with Cornwall, it isn't especially unlikely. [0] https://www.blueletterbible.org/esv/eze/27/12/s_829012 https://www.blueletterbible.org/esv/eze/27/12/s_829012

narag 7y ago
Tarsis is thought to be refering to Cádiz in Spain. Cádiz was founded by phoenicians (if you visit, make sure to check the archeological museum [0]) to trade with the lost kingdom of Tartessos. Tartessos is placed in the Guadalquivir estuary by Rufus Festus Avienus' Ora Maritima, but its exact location is unknown. There are some efforts to pinpoint it using satellite images, because its ruins could be buried under the sand. https://www.visit-andalucia.com/one_post.php?id=111 https://www.visit-andalucia.com/one_post.php?id=111

mmikeff 7y ago

I haven't got the book to hand but have read of Moorish pirates kidnapping fishermen from their boats around the Lizard peninsula and selling them into slavery. If true then the idea of ships travelling directly may not be so far fetched. (edit - in the 1600s though)

ocschwar 7y ago

Britain and Wales don't have a lot of evidence for a Phoenician presence, but interestingly, some place names on the west of the island have Semitic names, and those places make sense as locations where Phoenicians would be allowed to land to trade for the tin but not allowed to venture inland. Most interesting is Echri Island in the Severn river. It's the most inland island in the river, making it the last island a ship would try to land on if forbidden to land in the mainland. And E-kh-R is the Semitic root for the word "last." (A-kha-ron in Hebrew.) While I'm at this, it's no secret that coastal cities in Spain have Phoenician names: Barcelona, Malaga, Cartagena and Cadiz. Cadiz comes from "gader," meaning "boundary", and the Phoenician colonists there were charged with making sure nobody except Carthaginians would be allowed to sail west of there (and then on to Britain.)

dotancohen 7y ago
> While I'm at this, it's no secret that coastal > cities in Spain have Phoenician names Spain itself, España, comes from "Ei hashafanim" אי השפנים or "Island of bunny/hyrax", which once were abundant there.
- asveikau 7y ago
  I think this is one theory among several: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispania#Etymology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispania#Etymology One must also likely compare the proposed root with Latin Hispania rather than directly with modern España.

CydeWeys 7y ago

Prior to the invention of the railroad, all bulk goods (including food and non-precious metals like tin) could essentially only be traded long distance via ship. It simply isn't practical to move them via animal-drawn carts; the animals cost too much, they eat too much, it takes too long, and the roads weren't there. Rome, for example, was supplied by an unbelievable number of ships' worth of food every day. It would have starved without that ocean access; there's not enough nearby land to be used as farmland to grow all the necessary food in the pre-railroad era.

JoeAltmaier 7y ago
Tin was very valuable. In fact most often we find high-value product have travelled long distances. Like jewelry, decorative items. Is tin one of these?
btilly 7y ago
Even after the invention of the railroad, it is cheaper to sail from Los Angeles through the Panama Canal to New York than to send the same load cross country by train. Railroads are the cheapest form of land transportation. But boats are cheaper still.

thrower123 7y ago

I agree, it seems more likely to me that it operated similarly to the principles that held the Silk Road together. Almost no one did a Marco Polo and went all the way from the Mediterranean to Peking; instead most of the trade was bucket-brigading goods from one market town to the other.