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What people keep on forgetting is that Leaving the EU was never about money. Micheal Caine said it best "I'd rather be a poor master than a rich slave".

arethuza 7y ago
£350 million a week for the NHS? https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/10/the-350m-line-on-the-brexit-bus-was-wrong-the-real-figure-is-higher/ https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/10/the-350m-line-on-the-b...
- uncle_j 7y ago
  https://ukandeu.ac.uk/research-papers/peoples-stated-reasons-for-voting-leave-or-remain/ https://ukandeu.ac.uk/research-papers/peoples-stated-reasons... > This report includes several different surveys and opinion polls asking Britons why they voted the way they did in the EU referendum. It identifies that the two main reasons people voted Leave were ‘immigration’ and ‘sovereignty’, whereas the main reason people voted Remain was ‘the economy’. No mention of the Bus anywhere or the NHS. So no.
frereubu 7y ago
I agree, and I've said that elsewhere in the comments. Thing is, this is going to come back and bite many of the people who think they're voting for more freedom. Poverty doesn't make you free.
- thomasedwards 7y ago
  > Poverty doesn't make you free. Incredibly true. People who have the fortune to believe that ‘personal choice’ reigns supreme can’t imagine what it’s like when you only have one choice.
  - croon 7y ago
    Unfortunate analogy in a situation with two clear distinct choices though.
  - uncle_j 7y ago
    The UK isn't going to turn into a 3rd world country anytime soon and the Economy at the moment is still growing faster than Germany and is projected to continue after the 31st.
- _Understated_ 7y ago
  Where does the poverty angle come in? By leaving the EU, where we were a net contributor, how is that going to make us poor? Genuine question, I only ever saw that argument (with no data, I might add) from hardcore remainers like SNP.
  - frereubu 7y ago
    These are just the figures so far. This doesn't take into account things that are yet to happen like losing access to the single market (proximity is a far better predictor of economic exchange than culture, so talk of trade deals with Australia and New Zealand need to be taken with a huge pinch of salt), withdrawal from EU trade deals which are going to take a long time to renegotiate piecemeal (and which we're unlikely to get on the same terms as a separate entity), etc. The UK government has recently made noises to the effect that they're not interested in regulatory alignment with the EU, which is harmful because they're our biggest trading partner. To be clear, the EU is going to suffer too, but nothing like as much as the UK.
    - _Understated_ 7y ago
      I don't disagree that there will be ups and downs but money talks. 1 in every 7 German cars is bought in the UK. I couldn't find a price tag for that but it will be £Billions. Easily. There will still be deals made across the EU with the UK... there is too much money at stake not to.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
CaptainZapp 7y ago
Well, then what about that 350 Million£ a week for the NHS bus the Brexiters were so proud of displaying? If that's not about money I'm not sure what is.
- oddeyed 7y ago
  Just because that's one thing that the campaign talked about, doesn't make it the reason that people chose to vote leave.
- Piskvorrr 7y ago
  Ah, the notorious Bus of Lies.
- uncle_j 7y ago
  Nobody I know who voted leave ever mentions the bus. Sure it was part of the "Leave Campaign" but that doesn't mean it is why people voted. https://ukandeu.ac.uk/research-papers/peoples-stated-reasons-for-voting-leave-or-remain/ https://ukandeu.ac.uk/research-papers/peoples-stated-reasons... Note the Bus or the NHS isn't mentioned.
stunt 7y ago
But British had so much influence and power on EU and outside EU by being a member.
wastedhours 7y ago
The narrative I've seen from the people I know who supported it is basically split 50/50 between not wanting to take orders from Brussels (even if we were at the table, making those rules) and just straight-up xenophobia. I think the common thing about Brexit is that voting to leave is quite likely not based in any actual reason, but is a purely emotional reaction. An emotional reaction that's certainly already screwed up my own future plans, so take that as my bias for remain.
- uncle_j 7y ago
  > and just straight-up xenophobia. This is tiring to keep seeing this constant smear repeated. Sure immigration was mentioned but having control over immigration isn't the same as xenophobia. I've lived in a few different countries and the UK generally isn't xenophobic. > I think the common thing about Brexit is that voting to leave is quite likely not based in any actual reason, but is a purely emotional reaction. Well I would disagree. There are plenty of reasons why (not taking orders from Brussels is a really good reason, especially after Article 11 and 13 were drafted and forced through the Parliament).
  - ginko 7y ago
    >especially after Article 11 and 13 were drafted and forced through the Parliament Both the UK Labour and Conservative Parties supported those.
  - wastedhours 7y ago
    I don't classify it as a smear - it's true: control on immigration is, on varying levels, direct xenophobia. Most border policy is straight up prejudice against people based solely on the fact they aren't a citizen here, to different amounts based on the location they're coming from and the nature of their business in the receiving country. Labelling people who voted to restrict border controls prejudiced against those who come from abroad isn't some horrific smear insult, it's merely stating the facts: they don't like "immigrant type X" and have acted accordingly. I was also explicitly referencing my experience with those who I know who are outwardly Leave. Not once has any specific policy come up within their reasoning - broad feelings have been far and away the driver.
cafxx 7y ago
"The problem with a revolt against imaginary oppression is that you end up with imaginary freedom." -- https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jan/17/nul-points-eu-revision-contest-brexiters-big-ben https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jan/17/nul-po... So I agree with you, it was never about money.
- uncle_j 7y ago
  Using the hyper-partisan guardian opinion piece as evidence of anything is laughable. It is quite clear that many here don't want to understand those that voted Leave. Instead they are quite happy to build a straw-man.
  - cafxx 7y ago
    I'm not really trying to use it as evidence of anything. You picked a citation, I picked another one. Furthermore, as mentioned, I agree with you on the reason not being money. Regarding your other point, I honestly think there's nothing profound to understand but feel free to prove me wrong with concrete examples and no hand-waving or out-of-context citations. Demagogues with agendas have existed for a long time, they are nothing new. So has scapegoating. No-one in their right mind will claim that the EU is perfect, but the result of simplistically asking people to make a black-and-white decision about something so incredibly complex, and with so many unknowns, that almost no-one is in a position of fully understanding had the consequence of throwing the baby out with the water. And all because of a razor-thin-basically-within-uncertainty margin in the results. Obviously, as laughable as this may be, it is a valid choice - and we will all have to live with its consequences. I - for one - can't wait to get Scotland back in the EU.
    - uncle_j 7y ago
      If nobody can truly understand the EU how can you hold anyone or anything accountable? You've just made half of the sovereignty argument for me. As for Scotland joining the EU. Even if Scotland does become independent (it won't), the EU wouldn't let an independent Scotland in. > In order to join the EU you've got to have a budget deficit of 3% of GDP or less or be obviously (which allows for some fudging) moving in that direction. And Scotland, now that oil has plummeted, simply is not there. It's difficult, given the intertwining of British and Scottish accounts to get it exactly right but reasonable estimates have the Scottish alone budget deficit at 8 to 10% of GDP. https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/06/26/the-problem-with-scotlands-desire-to-be-in-the-eu-they-wouldnt-be-accepted-as-members/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/06/26/the-prob... Scotland cannot sustain itself at all on its own. The SNP run Scotland poorly (and it is in their interest to do so) so it would have to go under massive austerity the moment they go independent.
me_me_me 7y ago
True, but also if you ask those people what 'EU' laws they want to revert after Brexit, all you will hear back is 'Its matter of principles and not exact examples'.

arethuza 7y ago

£350 million a week for the NHS? https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/10/the-350m-line-on-the-brexit-bus-was-wrong-the-real-figure-is-higher/ https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/10/the-350m-line-on-the-b...

uncle_j 7y ago
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/research-papers/peoples-stated-reasons-for-voting-leave-or-remain/ https://ukandeu.ac.uk/research-papers/peoples-stated-reasons... > This report includes several different surveys and opinion polls asking Britons why they voted the way they did in the EU referendum. It identifies that the two main reasons people voted Leave were ‘immigration’ and ‘sovereignty’, whereas the main reason people voted Remain was ‘the economy’. No mention of the Bus anywhere or the NHS. So no.

frereubu 7y ago

I agree, and I've said that elsewhere in the comments. Thing is, this is going to come back and bite many of the people who think they're voting for more freedom. Poverty doesn't make you free.

thomasedwards 7y ago
> Poverty doesn't make you free. Incredibly true. People who have the fortune to believe that ‘personal choice’ reigns supreme can’t imagine what it’s like when you only have one choice.
- croon 7y ago
  Unfortunate analogy in a situation with two clear distinct choices though.
- uncle_j 7y ago
  The UK isn't going to turn into a 3rd world country anytime soon and the Economy at the moment is still growing faster than Germany and is projected to continue after the 31st.
_Understated_ 7y ago
Where does the poverty angle come in? By leaving the EU, where we were a net contributor, how is that going to make us poor? Genuine question, I only ever saw that argument (with no data, I might add) from hardcore remainers like SNP.
- frereubu 7y ago
  These are just the figures so far. This doesn't take into account things that are yet to happen like losing access to the single market (proximity is a far better predictor of economic exchange than culture, so talk of trade deals with Australia and New Zealand need to be taken with a huge pinch of salt), withdrawal from EU trade deals which are going to take a long time to renegotiate piecemeal (and which we're unlikely to get on the same terms as a separate entity), etc. The UK government has recently made noises to the effect that they're not interested in regulatory alignment with the EU, which is harmful because they're our biggest trading partner. To be clear, the EU is going to suffer too, but nothing like as much as the UK.
  - _Understated_ 7y ago
    I don't disagree that there will be ups and downs but money talks. 1 in every 7 German cars is bought in the UK. I couldn't find a price tag for that but it will be £Billions. Easily. There will still be deals made across the EU with the UK... there is too much money at stake not to.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

CaptainZapp 7y ago

Well, then what about that 350 Million£ a week for the NHS bus the Brexiters were so proud of displaying? If that's not about money I'm not sure what is.

oddeyed 7y ago
Just because that's one thing that the campaign talked about, doesn't make it the reason that people chose to vote leave.
Piskvorrr 7y ago
Ah, the notorious Bus of Lies.
uncle_j 7y ago
Nobody I know who voted leave ever mentions the bus. Sure it was part of the "Leave Campaign" but that doesn't mean it is why people voted. https://ukandeu.ac.uk/research-papers/peoples-stated-reasons-for-voting-leave-or-remain/ https://ukandeu.ac.uk/research-papers/peoples-stated-reasons... Note the Bus or the NHS isn't mentioned.

stunt 7y ago

But British had so much influence and power on EU and outside EU by being a member.

wastedhours 7y ago

The narrative I've seen from the people I know who supported it is basically split 50/50 between not wanting to take orders from Brussels (even if we were at the table, making those rules) and just straight-up xenophobia. I think the common thing about Brexit is that voting to leave is quite likely not based in any actual reason, but is a purely emotional reaction. An emotional reaction that's certainly already screwed up my own future plans, so take that as my bias for remain.

uncle_j 7y ago
> and just straight-up xenophobia. This is tiring to keep seeing this constant smear repeated. Sure immigration was mentioned but having control over immigration isn't the same as xenophobia. I've lived in a few different countries and the UK generally isn't xenophobic. > I think the common thing about Brexit is that voting to leave is quite likely not based in any actual reason, but is a purely emotional reaction. Well I would disagree. There are plenty of reasons why (not taking orders from Brussels is a really good reason, especially after Article 11 and 13 were drafted and forced through the Parliament).
- ginko 7y ago
  >especially after Article 11 and 13 were drafted and forced through the Parliament Both the UK Labour and Conservative Parties supported those.
- wastedhours 7y ago
  I don't classify it as a smear - it's true: control on immigration is, on varying levels, direct xenophobia. Most border policy is straight up prejudice against people based solely on the fact they aren't a citizen here, to different amounts based on the location they're coming from and the nature of their business in the receiving country. Labelling people who voted to restrict border controls prejudiced against those who come from abroad isn't some horrific smear insult, it's merely stating the facts: they don't like "immigrant type X" and have acted accordingly. I was also explicitly referencing my experience with those who I know who are outwardly Leave. Not once has any specific policy come up within their reasoning - broad feelings have been far and away the driver.

cafxx 7y ago

"The problem with a revolt against imaginary oppression is that you end up with imaginary freedom." -- https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jan/17/nul-points-eu-revision-contest-brexiters-big-ben https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jan/17/nul-po... So I agree with you, it was never about money.

uncle_j 7y ago
Using the hyper-partisan guardian opinion piece as evidence of anything is laughable. It is quite clear that many here don't want to understand those that voted Leave. Instead they are quite happy to build a straw-man.
- cafxx 7y ago
  I'm not really trying to use it as evidence of anything. You picked a citation, I picked another one. Furthermore, as mentioned, I agree with you on the reason not being money. Regarding your other point, I honestly think there's nothing profound to understand but feel free to prove me wrong with concrete examples and no hand-waving or out-of-context citations. Demagogues with agendas have existed for a long time, they are nothing new. So has scapegoating. No-one in their right mind will claim that the EU is perfect, but the result of simplistically asking people to make a black-and-white decision about something so incredibly complex, and with so many unknowns, that almost no-one is in a position of fully understanding had the consequence of throwing the baby out with the water. And all because of a razor-thin-basically-within-uncertainty margin in the results. Obviously, as laughable as this may be, it is a valid choice - and we will all have to live with its consequences. I - for one - can't wait to get Scotland back in the EU.
  - uncle_j 7y ago
    If nobody can truly understand the EU how can you hold anyone or anything accountable? You've just made half of the sovereignty argument for me. As for Scotland joining the EU. Even if Scotland does become independent (it won't), the EU wouldn't let an independent Scotland in. > In order to join the EU you've got to have a budget deficit of 3% of GDP or less or be obviously (which allows for some fudging) moving in that direction. And Scotland, now that oil has plummeted, simply is not there. It's difficult, given the intertwining of British and Scottish accounts to get it exactly right but reasonable estimates have the Scottish alone budget deficit at 8 to 10% of GDP. https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/06/26/the-problem-with-scotlands-desire-to-be-in-the-eu-they-wouldnt-be-accepted-as-members/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/06/26/the-prob... Scotland cannot sustain itself at all on its own. The SNP run Scotland poorly (and it is in their interest to do so) so it would have to go under massive austerity the moment they go independent.

me_me_me 7y ago

True, but also if you ask those people what 'EU' laws they want to revert after Brexit, all you will hear back is 'Its matter of principles and not exact examples'.