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Borland C and Pascal were great for learning programming in mid-90s, because of one crucial feature: an immensely good built in help reference. Whenever you wa

Borland C and Pascal were great for learning programming in mid-90s, because of one crucial feature: an immensely good built in help reference. Whenever you wanted to know syntax of some command, you print this command, press ctrl-f1 and is presented with docs, complete with a working example. It was insanely great. Remember, stack overflow didn't exist then.

zozbot234 7y ago
QuickBASIC works the same way. Rust doesn't really build its help documentation for "built-in" access in the programming environment (everything is web-based, even "local" docs launch in a web browser) but examples are a first-class feature; they're reused as test cases.
- agumonkey 7y ago
  Talking about that, rust html docs gobs a whopping 400MB (2/3 of the install size IIRC). When compressed they're 22MB.
  - zozbot234 7y ago
    Rust and cargo are quite wasteful of disk space anyway, they should fix that first. 400MB is a drop in the bucket.
  - cesarb 7y ago
    Not long ago, there was support on Firefox to directly open HTML pages within compressed files (through the jar: protocol). If that still existed, it would be an option to distribute the rust HTML docs within a compressed .jar file, and let the browser read directly from it.
    - agumonkey 7y ago
      yeah that's a pity albeit there's still zcat
- adwn 7y ago
  > Rust [...] everything is web-based Correction: Rust's help and documentation is HTML-based, and getting a local, automatically updated copy is trivial. > even "local" docs launch in a web browser Uh, so what? Can you name a better format for programming language documentation that's also ubiquitously supported?
  - zozbot234 7y ago
    > Can you name a better format for programming language documentation that's also ubiquitously supported? Info format. It's supported by Emacs, and Emacs is the most ubiquitous of IDE's.
    - randomblast 7y ago
      > Emacs is the most ubiquitous of IDE's. Sorry, have you been in a coma for 30 years?
      - SEJeff 7y ago
        Your question is rhetorical here, right?
    - adwn 7y ago
      > Info format. I said "ubiquitously supported". There are several orders of magnitude difference between info format support and HTML support. > Emacs is the most ubiquitous of IDE's That's laughably wrong.
      - blacksmith_tb 7y ago
        Well, it may be on everyone's machine (just type 'which emacs') but that hardly makes it the most commonly used IDE, which I think is what's hard to stomach.
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
- cerebellum42 7y ago
  Even though the Rust docs aren't built for this purpose first, in IntelliJ or CLion I can still press Ctrl + Q on a method and see the full method documentation with examples. I think what IntelliJ does is simply parse the doc comment for that method and then render the markdown contained in it in the little popup. The standard docs are built from those comments as well.
devpts11 7y ago
Stack Overflow has dumbed people down significantly because of the mental laziness it engenders. In a time before the internet, it used to be that books, and occasionally magazines, were the initial entry points to understanding software, hardware and electronics. Then the BBS came along, these secret islands of knowledge and trade. I learned Pascal and assembly on Turbo Pascal with trial-and-error and lots of context-sensitive help. These days, development is mostly fragmented and half-working. Progress is neither linear, increasing nor assured, and much is lost, reinvented not necessarily as well and lost again. Also, eventually coding will decline or bifurcate more because general AI will allow non-programmers to ask a machine to do Star Trek-like self-programming. Essentially all office jobs are vulnerable to elimination as mechanical machine operators.
- krembo 7y ago
  "Stack Overflow has dumbed people down significantly because of the mental laziness it engenders." +1 for this
- arghwhat 7y ago
  I would argue that StackOverflow itself is not a problem—it is instead the laziness of many in the "newer" generations of programmers. StackOverflow has many great explanations, which are no different than reading a chapter in a book (it's just a book that is extremely relevant to you problem). The problem is that lazy people demand code dumps, and lazy people provide code dumps instead of explanations. This then becomes a feedback loop as people get used to this degree of laziness. This is especially rampant for Web topics, and to some extend also a counter-argument to the Borland help pages with examples: When presented with a fully written solution, people will blindly copy it and only do the minimum amount of work to make it run.
  - kungito 7y ago
    I believe if nothing else then it's the fact that there are more programmers meaning less hardcore people who just want to get shit done and move on
neves 7y ago
They also were quick compilers and fit in a floppy.
- peter_d_sherman 7y ago
  If the old harware aphorism is "Never trust a computer larger than you can lift", then the software counterpart to that must be "Never trust a compiler that doesn't fit on a single floppy". <g> "Never trust a compiler that doesn't fit on a single floppy" I'm coining that second expression right here on Hacker News, today, 1/22/2020! I'm fairly certain no one has said it prior... But if they have, then my humble apologies, and in such case I'm un-coining it... <g>
  - peter_d_sherman 7y ago
    Sorry, meant to say 'hardware'... Somehow my text got munged...
YAFZ 7y ago
Turbo C++ documentation was legendary, with a healthy dose of humor! https://everything2.com/title/7+hertz+-+the+resonant+frequency+of+a+chicken%2527s+skull https://everything2.com/title/7+hertz+-+the+resonant+frequen...
- gibatronic 7y ago
  This brought memories from when the whole class turned to beep inferno. Good times.
- philpem 7y ago
  Turbo Pascal (or possibly Borland Pascal) was good too. From the index pages of one of the manuals: Infinite loop: see Loop, infinite. Loop, infinite: see Infinite loop.

zozbot234 7y ago

QuickBASIC works the same way. Rust doesn't really build its help documentation for "built-in" access in the programming environment (everything is web-based, even "local" docs launch in a web browser) but examples are a first-class feature; they're reused as test cases.

agumonkey 7y ago
Talking about that, rust html docs gobs a whopping 400MB (2/3 of the install size IIRC). When compressed they're 22MB.
- zozbot234 7y ago
  Rust and cargo are quite wasteful of disk space anyway, they should fix that first. 400MB is a drop in the bucket.
- cesarb 7y ago
  Not long ago, there was support on Firefox to directly open HTML pages within compressed files (through the jar: protocol). If that still existed, it would be an option to distribute the rust HTML docs within a compressed .jar file, and let the browser read directly from it.
  - agumonkey 7y ago
    yeah that's a pity albeit there's still zcat
adwn 7y ago
> Rust [...] everything is web-based Correction: Rust's help and documentation is HTML-based, and getting a local, automatically updated copy is trivial. > even "local" docs launch in a web browser Uh, so what? Can you name a better format for programming language documentation that's also ubiquitously supported?
- zozbot234 7y ago
  > Can you name a better format for programming language documentation that's also ubiquitously supported? Info format. It's supported by Emacs, and Emacs is the most ubiquitous of IDE's.
  - randomblast 7y ago
    > Emacs is the most ubiquitous of IDE's. Sorry, have you been in a coma for 30 years?
    - SEJeff 7y ago
      Your question is rhetorical here, right?
  - adwn 7y ago
    > Info format. I said "ubiquitously supported". There are several orders of magnitude difference between info format support and HTML support. > Emacs is the most ubiquitous of IDE's That's laughably wrong.
    - blacksmith_tb 7y ago
      Well, it may be on everyone's machine (just type 'which emacs') but that hardly makes it the most commonly used IDE, which I think is what's hard to stomach.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
cerebellum42 7y ago
Even though the Rust docs aren't built for this purpose first, in IntelliJ or CLion I can still press Ctrl + Q on a method and see the full method documentation with examples. I think what IntelliJ does is simply parse the doc comment for that method and then render the markdown contained in it in the little popup. The standard docs are built from those comments as well.

devpts11 7y ago

Stack Overflow has dumbed people down significantly because of the mental laziness it engenders. In a time before the internet, it used to be that books, and occasionally magazines, were the initial entry points to understanding software, hardware and electronics. Then the BBS came along, these secret islands of knowledge and trade. I learned Pascal and assembly on Turbo Pascal with trial-and-error and lots of context-sensitive help. These days, development is mostly fragmented and half-working. Progress is neither linear, increasing nor assured, and much is lost, reinvented not necessarily as well and lost again. Also, eventually coding will decline or bifurcate more because general AI will allow non-programmers to ask a machine to do Star Trek-like self-programming. Essentially all office jobs are vulnerable to elimination as mechanical machine operators.

krembo 7y ago
"Stack Overflow has dumbed people down significantly because of the mental laziness it engenders." +1 for this
arghwhat 7y ago
I would argue that StackOverflow itself is not a problem—it is instead the laziness of many in the "newer" generations of programmers. StackOverflow has many great explanations, which are no different than reading a chapter in a book (it's just a book that is extremely relevant to you problem). The problem is that lazy people demand code dumps, and lazy people provide code dumps instead of explanations. This then becomes a feedback loop as people get used to this degree of laziness. This is especially rampant for Web topics, and to some extend also a counter-argument to the Borland help pages with examples: When presented with a fully written solution, people will blindly copy it and only do the minimum amount of work to make it run.
- kungito 7y ago
  I believe if nothing else then it's the fact that there are more programmers meaning less hardcore people who just want to get shit done and move on

neves 7y ago

They also were quick compilers and fit in a floppy.

peter_d_sherman 7y ago
If the old harware aphorism is "Never trust a computer larger than you can lift", then the software counterpart to that must be "Never trust a compiler that doesn't fit on a single floppy". <g> "Never trust a compiler that doesn't fit on a single floppy" I'm coining that second expression right here on Hacker News, today, 1/22/2020! I'm fairly certain no one has said it prior... But if they have, then my humble apologies, and in such case I'm un-coining it... <g>
- peter_d_sherman 7y ago
  Sorry, meant to say 'hardware'... Somehow my text got munged...

YAFZ 7y ago

Turbo C++ documentation was legendary, with a healthy dose of humor! https://everything2.com/title/7+hertz+-+the+resonant+frequency+of+a+chicken%2527s+skull https://everything2.com/title/7+hertz+-+the+resonant+frequen...

gibatronic 7y ago
This brought memories from when the whole class turned to beep inferno. Good times.
philpem 7y ago
Turbo Pascal (or possibly Borland Pascal) was good too. From the index pages of one of the manuals: Infinite loop: see Loop, infinite. Loop, infinite: see Infinite loop.