6 ms·

There’s some weird numbers in the article, which may either be a lost in translation situation or more evidence that airlines and Boeing are once again playing

There’s some weird numbers in the article, which may either be a lost in translation situation or more evidence that airlines and Boeing are once again playing fast and loose with their plans. For example, Southwest is apparently claiming they will be able to train their 10000 737 pilots on the simulator in 30 days. They have 3 simulators (still going through certification) and have ordered another 3 for late 2020. Assuming they have all 6 on day one, that means each simulator will be training approximately 1600 pilots. Divided by 30 days, gives you 50 pilots a day? In other words less than 30 minutes a pilot assuming extreme efficiency. And training 24/7.

t0mas88 7y ago
It's always two at a time, you train with a normal counterpart (captain or FO) next to you. But 1 hour isn't very long, although I guess they only need to do some MAX specific maneuvers to deal with the stall characteristics and MCAS. Not a full sim-check.
- jacquesm 7y ago
  That's worrisome because by then the pilots will not have flown that particular aircraft for over a year. You'd expect some training time to be mandatory after such a long lapse.
  - chinathrow 7y ago
    Since they had minimal (iPad only) training time coming from the NG to the Max before, I too am curious to see on how this turns out. I assume that at least some authorities will take that into account.
  - o-__-o 7y ago
    Everything else about it is still a 737. The training is also not limited to just sim time, there should be extensive teaching on integration e.g. checklists and system design. Also, when you're in the sim, it's not like its just take off, fly around, something fails, you land, kind of thing.. It's a situation they are provided and then you are observed as to how you handle that situation. In this case, I'm sure it will focus on random failures along this new MCAS path (what i'm saying is the MCAS system will be fully failable as a sim option). Your manager (a senior pilot) then decides, on all information not just the sim, if you are airworthy or need another go around of training.
    - Someone1234 7y ago
      > Everything else about it is still a 737. Déjà vu
      - Filligree 7y ago
        Not exactly wrong, though. It's the engine characteristics and MCAS system that make the difference, and those don't affect most regimes. (Or in MCAS' case, aren't supposed to.)
bonestamp2 7y ago
I was surprised by that 10,000 pilot number. It seems huge until you look it up and realize they have 752 planes. Each plane averages 6 flights/day. So they have about 13 pilots per plane and an average of 2 pilots per flight. *Of course, many of those flights are flown by the same pilots which gives them coverage for the various shifts. The numbers are probably a little more off now too since some of their fleet is idle. Either way, 10,000 pilots doesn't even sound like enough after roughing up the numbers.
- dmurray 7y ago
  13 pilots per plane sounds like more than enough. Each plane needs two pilots at a time. Each plane is manned maybe 105 hours a week (say 17 hours a day on average, less 5% of the time in maintenance), so it requires 210 pilot-hours per week. A full time employee works about 35 hours a week after sick leave and holidays. So you need about six full-time pilots per plane. Pilots spend some time in training and admin outside of the plane, but it could hardly amount to enough to double the staffing requirements, especially for Southwest who are famously lean and efficient. I'd guess a significant number of the 10,000 are on standby or get limited hours (but of course need to be trained to the same level as full-timers).
  - LanceH 7y ago
    You need 1 crew per flight, but really 2 crews per day per plane. Pilots work about half the days, so 4 crews per plane. That gets you to 8 pilots per plane, which is roughly 6k pilots without redundancy or pilots working very limited segments.
  - hindsightbias 7y ago
    Pilots are limited to 100 hours flight duty per 28 days and 190 hours total duty time. SW had a fairly lower flight rate a few years back, something like 60 hours if I remember correctly.
donarb 7y ago
Southwest only has 34 737 MAX planes. There is no way that all 10000 pilots will be trained in 30 days. Most likely, a couple hundred of those will be trained up front so that enough pilots are trained when the plane is returned to service. Airlines segregate pilots all the time based on ratings for specific planes so this should not present a logistics problem. Southwest has another 200 MAX planes on order that have yet to be built, enough cushion to certify future pilots.
parsimo2010 7y ago
They will probably not train 10,000 pilots in 30 days. They will be able to train enough pilots in 30 days to cover the flights that will use a Max as equipment. Southwest reports that the max was scheduled for 330 out of 4,000 daily flights (https://www.southwest.com/html/air/737-MAX-8.html?clk=737MAX8_190408 https://www.southwest.com/html/air/737-MAX-8.html?clk=737MAX...). Training 5-10% of their 10,000 pilots in 30 days is much more feasible. Southwest does (or did) intend to purchase more over time, but they will easily be able to keep pace to have enough trained pilots ready to fly as they replace older equipment.

t0mas88 7y ago

It's always two at a time, you train with a normal counterpart (captain or FO) next to you. But 1 hour isn't very long, although I guess they only need to do some MAX specific maneuvers to deal with the stall characteristics and MCAS. Not a full sim-check.

jacquesm 7y ago
That's worrisome because by then the pilots will not have flown that particular aircraft for over a year. You'd expect some training time to be mandatory after such a long lapse.
- chinathrow 7y ago
  Since they had minimal (iPad only) training time coming from the NG to the Max before, I too am curious to see on how this turns out. I assume that at least some authorities will take that into account.
- o-__-o 7y ago
  Everything else about it is still a 737. The training is also not limited to just sim time, there should be extensive teaching on integration e.g. checklists and system design. Also, when you're in the sim, it's not like its just take off, fly around, something fails, you land, kind of thing.. It's a situation they are provided and then you are observed as to how you handle that situation. In this case, I'm sure it will focus on random failures along this new MCAS path (what i'm saying is the MCAS system will be fully failable as a sim option). Your manager (a senior pilot) then decides, on all information not just the sim, if you are airworthy or need another go around of training.
  - Someone1234 7y ago
    > Everything else about it is still a 737. Déjà vu
    - Filligree 7y ago
      Not exactly wrong, though. It's the engine characteristics and MCAS system that make the difference, and those don't affect most regimes. (Or in MCAS' case, aren't supposed to.)

bonestamp2 7y ago

I was surprised by that 10,000 pilot number. It seems huge until you look it up and realize they have 752 planes. Each plane averages 6 flights/day. So they have about 13 pilots per plane and an average of 2 pilots per flight. *Of course, many of those flights are flown by the same pilots which gives them coverage for the various shifts. The numbers are probably a little more off now too since some of their fleet is idle. Either way, 10,000 pilots doesn't even sound like enough after roughing up the numbers.

dmurray 7y ago
13 pilots per plane sounds like more than enough. Each plane needs two pilots at a time. Each plane is manned maybe 105 hours a week (say 17 hours a day on average, less 5% of the time in maintenance), so it requires 210 pilot-hours per week. A full time employee works about 35 hours a week after sick leave and holidays. So you need about six full-time pilots per plane. Pilots spend some time in training and admin outside of the plane, but it could hardly amount to enough to double the staffing requirements, especially for Southwest who are famously lean and efficient. I'd guess a significant number of the 10,000 are on standby or get limited hours (but of course need to be trained to the same level as full-timers).
- LanceH 7y ago
  You need 1 crew per flight, but really 2 crews per day per plane. Pilots work about half the days, so 4 crews per plane. That gets you to 8 pilots per plane, which is roughly 6k pilots without redundancy or pilots working very limited segments.
- hindsightbias 7y ago
  Pilots are limited to 100 hours flight duty per 28 days and 190 hours total duty time. SW had a fairly lower flight rate a few years back, something like 60 hours if I remember correctly.

donarb 7y ago

Southwest only has 34 737 MAX planes. There is no way that all 10000 pilots will be trained in 30 days. Most likely, a couple hundred of those will be trained up front so that enough pilots are trained when the plane is returned to service. Airlines segregate pilots all the time based on ratings for specific planes so this should not present a logistics problem. Southwest has another 200 MAX planes on order that have yet to be built, enough cushion to certify future pilots.

parsimo2010 7y ago

They will probably not train 10,000 pilots in 30 days. They will be able to train enough pilots in 30 days to cover the flights that will use a Max as equipment. Southwest reports that the max was scheduled for 330 out of 4,000 daily flights (https://www.southwest.com/html/air/737-MAX-8.html?clk=737MAX8_190408 https://www.southwest.com/html/air/737-MAX-8.html?clk=737MAX...). Training 5-10% of their 10,000 pilots in 30 days is much more feasible. Southwest does (or did) intend to purchase more over time, but they will easily be able to keep pace to have enough trained pilots ready to fly as they replace older equipment.