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> One of the foundations of America's success in the earlier years (up to the beginning of the 20th C) was its general disregard for IP laws. Uh, you should re

> One of the foundations of America's success in the earlier years (up to the beginning of the 20th C) was its general disregard for IP laws. Uh, you should really read up on America's early economic development. Its success has very little to do with IP laws. And to counter your claim: look at China, which has no IP laws. How much software innovation do you see coming from there? Yup, zero.

nostrademons 16y ago
China is actually a very good example, you're just looking at the wrong industry. Both America and China industrialized by misappropriating trade secrets from the reigning technical powers of the time (Britain and America, respectively) and then bringing that knowledge home where it could be employed by workers who were willing to work for less. The birthplace of the American industrial revolution are the textile mills at Waltham and later Lowell, MA. Francis Cabot Lowell spent 2 years memorizing how British power mills worked, and then came back to America with all that knowledge in his head. He then copied the design of that mill on the banks of the Charles River, and American industry was born. China's manufacturing similarly depends upon transfer of knowledge from developed to developing nations, though in this case the transfer is largely voluntary, with American firms setting up factories in China. However, people then leave those factories and set up their own firms, using the trade secrets they gained while working at foreign multinationals. Software is the wrong industry to look at - think in terms of textiles or cars.
danenania 16y ago
Their economy is growing much faster than America's though, and there are a few other factors, like, oh I don't know, an authoritarian state and walled off internet that might just be slowing down software innovation independent of the IP situation.
- billmcneale 16y ago
  That's a fair statement. I still think that the absence of IP laws in China provides no incentive for new companies to innovate. Back to my original point: if the US software patent system is so broken, how come America is #1 in software innovation?
  - danenania 16y ago
    It's an interesting question. I suppose the first step is to see if there is another country that has better or nonexistent IP laws without mitigating social and political factors like China's. It may be difficult because the sheer amount of capital in the US, both physical and cultural, is probably enough to offset the effect of bad IP laws in comparison to most countries. You also need to find a way to measure software innovation per capita to control for population. It may be that the US is simply the best of a bad lot.
nhamann 16y ago
Please correct me if I'm misreading you here, but it appears that your "counter" is incorrect. The GP claims that (IP laws implies lack of innovation). You present a single example of (No IP laws & no innovation). However, the GP did not claim that a lack of IP laws is sufficient for innovation, only that it is necessary.
jellicle 16y ago
> How much software innovation do you see coming from there? > > Yup, zero. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_industry_in_China http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_industry_in_China "China's software industry grew at a compound annual growth rate of more than 39% over the period from 2001 to 2007 to reach RMB 506 billion and is further anticipated to grow at a CAGR of nearly 22% through 2012."
- vorg 16y ago
  "software industry" and "software innovation" are two different concepts. > It is predicted that in China, Linux market (both server and client) will grow with an annual rate of 34 %. The client-side share growth will be comparatively faster.[citation needed] I recently walked around a large computer bazaar in China looking for a laptop with Linux pre-installed. I finally found one with a sign saying "Computers for sale with Windows or Linux installed". I walked in asking for one with Linux, pointing to the sign. The seller went "Uhh?!? These are all there are, and they all have Windows. You should know better than to read signs."
- billmcneale 16y ago
  I was talking about innovation, you are talking about growth. Where are the Google, Facebook, Twitter, Apple, Foursquare, LinkedIn? Look at all the startups and new ideas described in Techcrunch every day, how many of them came from China?
  - thristian 16y ago
    Why would a startup in China focus on the American market? A Chinese startup has a vastly larger local market to address, one that doesn't require localisation support or careful negotiation of cultural differences. Until they've saturated the local market, marketing in America would be a waste of time and effort.
tbrownaw 16y ago
look at China, which has no IP laws. How much software innovation do you see coming from there? Yup, zero. The IP laws here mean they wouldn't be able to sell me anything that resulted from their lack of IP laws, and the language barrier means I wouldn't likely see anything they weren't trying to sell me. So why would my not seeing anything have any meaning?

nostrademons 16y ago

China is actually a very good example, you're just looking at the wrong industry. Both America and China industrialized by misappropriating trade secrets from the reigning technical powers of the time (Britain and America, respectively) and then bringing that knowledge home where it could be employed by workers who were willing to work for less. The birthplace of the American industrial revolution are the textile mills at Waltham and later Lowell, MA. Francis Cabot Lowell spent 2 years memorizing how British power mills worked, and then came back to America with all that knowledge in his head. He then copied the design of that mill on the banks of the Charles River, and American industry was born. China's manufacturing similarly depends upon transfer of knowledge from developed to developing nations, though in this case the transfer is largely voluntary, with American firms setting up factories in China. However, people then leave those factories and set up their own firms, using the trade secrets they gained while working at foreign multinationals. Software is the wrong industry to look at - think in terms of textiles or cars.

danenania 16y ago

Their economy is growing much faster than America's though, and there are a few other factors, like, oh I don't know, an authoritarian state and walled off internet that might just be slowing down software innovation independent of the IP situation.

billmcneale 16y ago
That's a fair statement. I still think that the absence of IP laws in China provides no incentive for new companies to innovate. Back to my original point: if the US software patent system is so broken, how come America is #1 in software innovation?
- danenania 16y ago
  It's an interesting question. I suppose the first step is to see if there is another country that has better or nonexistent IP laws without mitigating social and political factors like China's. It may be difficult because the sheer amount of capital in the US, both physical and cultural, is probably enough to offset the effect of bad IP laws in comparison to most countries. You also need to find a way to measure software innovation per capita to control for population. It may be that the US is simply the best of a bad lot.

nhamann 16y ago

Please correct me if I'm misreading you here, but it appears that your "counter" is incorrect. The GP claims that (IP laws implies lack of innovation). You present a single example of (No IP laws & no innovation). However, the GP did not claim that a lack of IP laws is sufficient for innovation, only that it is necessary.

jellicle 16y ago

> How much software innovation do you see coming from there? > > Yup, zero. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_industry_in_China http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_industry_in_China "China's software industry grew at a compound annual growth rate of more than 39% over the period from 2001 to 2007 to reach RMB 506 billion and is further anticipated to grow at a CAGR of nearly 22% through 2012."

vorg 16y ago
"software industry" and "software innovation" are two different concepts. > It is predicted that in China, Linux market (both server and client) will grow with an annual rate of 34 %. The client-side share growth will be comparatively faster.[citation needed] I recently walked around a large computer bazaar in China looking for a laptop with Linux pre-installed. I finally found one with a sign saying "Computers for sale with Windows or Linux installed". I walked in asking for one with Linux, pointing to the sign. The seller went "Uhh?!? These are all there are, and they all have Windows. You should know better than to read signs."
billmcneale 16y ago
I was talking about innovation, you are talking about growth. Where are the Google, Facebook, Twitter, Apple, Foursquare, LinkedIn? Look at all the startups and new ideas described in Techcrunch every day, how many of them came from China?
- thristian 16y ago
  Why would a startup in China focus on the American market? A Chinese startup has a vastly larger local market to address, one that doesn't require localisation support or careful negotiation of cultural differences. Until they've saturated the local market, marketing in America would be a waste of time and effort.

tbrownaw 16y ago

look at China, which has no IP laws. How much software innovation do you see coming from there? Yup, zero. The IP laws here mean they wouldn't be able to sell me anything that resulted from their lack of IP laws, and the language barrier means I wouldn't likely see anything they weren't trying to sell me. So why would my not seeing anything have any meaning?