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>1) There is no way Apple would be allowed to sell iPhones in China, without China government having access to anything. So, I assume that Apple users in China

>1) There is no way Apple would be allowed to sell iPhones in China, without China government having access to anything. So, I assume that Apple users in China have e2e encrypted exactly nothing. E2E works exactly the same in China. You can read more in my comments here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20904857 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20904857 The same "vulnerability" of being able to respond to legal requests for iCloud data that exists in China exists everywhere else in the world.

president 7y ago
Please stop spreading disinformation. Your sources are outdated and the quotes that you are referencing are not legally binding. The fact is that Apple has clearly stated that iCloud data for Mainland Chinese users is stored on servers operated by a Chinese company, which must abide by the local laws and regulations. It is also a well known fact that all companies operating in China can be compelled by the Chinese government to provide data and do so in secret.
- Despegar 7y ago
  There's no disinformation in my comments. I seem to be one of the few people on the planet who seems to have actually dug into this exact issue while others only offer the typical FUD we've seen about how Apple's encryption works in China. The fact is that Apple has said multiple times (and even under oath) that end-to-end encryption applies to iPhones and iMessage in China, the same as it does everywhere else. And once again Erik Neuenschwander, an Apple privacy exec, told Congress in a hearing in December that this was still the case. At 02:10:46 https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/meetings/encryption-and-lawful-access-evaluating-benefits-and-risks-to-public-safety-and-privacy https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/meetings/encryption-and-law...
  - president 7y ago
    > In fact I seem to be one of the few people on the planet who seems to have actually dug into this exact issue while others only offer the typical FUD we've seen about how Apple's encryption works in China. I think instead of researching how Apple works in China, you need to start doing some research on how the Chinese government works and their track record on legal matters and rule of law. Also, the segment in the Senate hearing you referenced shows a senator who obviously does not have a good grasp on encryption technology asking bumbling questions about encryption. I have paraphrased the section here: > Senator: Do you sell phones in China? Are they encrypted? > Apple: The phones are the same and all of our phones are encrypted across the world Yes, obviously all phones have encryption but the Senator did not clarify what was being encrypted here and Apple took advantage of this in the response. > Senator: You're telling me that they [China] allows you to sell devices without you allowing them to breach the encryption and gain information about the users? > Apple: You're 100% correct Once again, the question posed was incoherent. Of course there is no "breaching of encryption" here - the Chinese government just asks for the keys or the data. It's all about language here. If this Senate hearing is your case for why data is safe in China, I honestly fear for all the political and religious dissidents that are trusting Apple for their safety.
    - Despegar 7y ago
      The question and his answer were both completely clear. And most importantly, it's perfectly consistent with what Apple has said multiple times. You can believe they lied to a federal court and Congress if you want, but I certainly don't.
      - president 7y ago
        There is no lying here. Only poorly worded questions that are conveniently misguided to the benefit of Apple.
        Despegar 7y ago
        I looked at your other comments so I know you're one of the bad faith FUD peddlers. But for anyone else that didn't click through to the thread I linked, you can hear it from the horse's mouth right here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD1cP8SK3Q0&feature=youtu.be&t=244 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD1cP8SK3Q0&feature=youtu.be...
        president 7y ago
        Didn't take long to escalate into an Ad Hominem attack did it? By the way, I don't think a Vice video with a puff-PR interview with Tim Cook about data privacy is going to help your case. It's about as effective as going into prison and asking an inmate if he's innocent.
    - codedokode 7y ago
      I think there might be misunderstanding about what exactly is "encrypted" and how. The comment 3 or 4 levels above says: > The same "vulnerability" of being able to respond to legal requests for iCloud data that exists in China exists everywhere else in the world. And an article on Apple's site [1] confirms that most data in the cloud are "encrypted", but without E2E encryption, possibly in a reversible way. That article also notes that while messages are E2E encrypted, a cloud backup might contain a key to decrypt them: > Messages in iCloud also uses end-to-end encryption. If you have iCloud Backup turned on, your backup includes a copy of the key protecting your Messages. This ensures you can recover your Messages if you lose access to iCloud Keychain and your trusted devices. So it is possible that the data on the phone are encrypted, the data in transit are encrypted, the data in the cloud are encrypted for every user in the world, but the cloud operator has the encryption keys for some of the encrypted data: Chinese operator for data of Chinese users and Apple for everyone else. This doesn't contradict neither with Apple's statement nor with the article nor with that comment above. [1] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303
commoner 7y ago
It was a reduction in security for Chinese iCloud users: > The U.S. company is moving iCloud accounts registered in mainland China to state-run Chinese servers on Wednesday along with the digital keys needed to unlock them. > In the past, if Chinese authorities wanted to access Apple's user data, they had to go through an international legal process and comply with U.S. laws on user rights, according to Ronald Deibert, director of the University of Toronto's Citizen Lab, which studies the intersection of digital policy and human rights. > "They will no longer have to do so if iCloud and cryptographic keys are located in China's jurisdiction," he told CNNMoney. https://money.cnn.com/2018/02/28/technology/apple-icloud-data-china/index.html https://money.cnn.com/2018/02/28/technology/apple-icloud-dat...

president 7y ago

Please stop spreading disinformation. Your sources are outdated and the quotes that you are referencing are not legally binding. The fact is that Apple has clearly stated that iCloud data for Mainland Chinese users is stored on servers operated by a Chinese company, which must abide by the local laws and regulations. It is also a well known fact that all companies operating in China can be compelled by the Chinese government to provide data and do so in secret.

Despegar 7y ago
There's no disinformation in my comments. I seem to be one of the few people on the planet who seems to have actually dug into this exact issue while others only offer the typical FUD we've seen about how Apple's encryption works in China. The fact is that Apple has said multiple times (and even under oath) that end-to-end encryption applies to iPhones and iMessage in China, the same as it does everywhere else. And once again Erik Neuenschwander, an Apple privacy exec, told Congress in a hearing in December that this was still the case. At 02:10:46 https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/meetings/encryption-and-lawful-access-evaluating-benefits-and-risks-to-public-safety-and-privacy https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/meetings/encryption-and-law...
- president 7y ago
  > In fact I seem to be one of the few people on the planet who seems to have actually dug into this exact issue while others only offer the typical FUD we've seen about how Apple's encryption works in China. I think instead of researching how Apple works in China, you need to start doing some research on how the Chinese government works and their track record on legal matters and rule of law. Also, the segment in the Senate hearing you referenced shows a senator who obviously does not have a good grasp on encryption technology asking bumbling questions about encryption. I have paraphrased the section here: > Senator: Do you sell phones in China? Are they encrypted? > Apple: The phones are the same and all of our phones are encrypted across the world Yes, obviously all phones have encryption but the Senator did not clarify what was being encrypted here and Apple took advantage of this in the response. > Senator: You're telling me that they [China] allows you to sell devices without you allowing them to breach the encryption and gain information about the users? > Apple: You're 100% correct Once again, the question posed was incoherent. Of course there is no "breaching of encryption" here - the Chinese government just asks for the keys or the data. It's all about language here. If this Senate hearing is your case for why data is safe in China, I honestly fear for all the political and religious dissidents that are trusting Apple for their safety.
  - Despegar 7y ago
    The question and his answer were both completely clear. And most importantly, it's perfectly consistent with what Apple has said multiple times. You can believe they lied to a federal court and Congress if you want, but I certainly don't.
    - president 7y ago
      There is no lying here. Only poorly worded questions that are conveniently misguided to the benefit of Apple.
      - Despegar 7y ago
        I looked at your other comments so I know you're one of the bad faith FUD peddlers. But for anyone else that didn't click through to the thread I linked, you can hear it from the horse's mouth right here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD1cP8SK3Q0&feature=youtu.be&t=244 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD1cP8SK3Q0&feature=youtu.be...
        president 7y ago
        Didn't take long to escalate into an Ad Hominem attack did it? By the way, I don't think a Vice video with a puff-PR interview with Tim Cook about data privacy is going to help your case. It's about as effective as going into prison and asking an inmate if he's innocent.
  - codedokode 7y ago
    I think there might be misunderstanding about what exactly is "encrypted" and how. The comment 3 or 4 levels above says: > The same "vulnerability" of being able to respond to legal requests for iCloud data that exists in China exists everywhere else in the world. And an article on Apple's site [1] confirms that most data in the cloud are "encrypted", but without E2E encryption, possibly in a reversible way. That article also notes that while messages are E2E encrypted, a cloud backup might contain a key to decrypt them: > Messages in iCloud also uses end-to-end encryption. If you have iCloud Backup turned on, your backup includes a copy of the key protecting your Messages. This ensures you can recover your Messages if you lose access to iCloud Keychain and your trusted devices. So it is possible that the data on the phone are encrypted, the data in transit are encrypted, the data in the cloud are encrypted for every user in the world, but the cloud operator has the encryption keys for some of the encrypted data: Chinese operator for data of Chinese users and Apple for everyone else. This doesn't contradict neither with Apple's statement nor with the article nor with that comment above. [1] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303

commoner 7y ago

It was a reduction in security for Chinese iCloud users: > The U.S. company is moving iCloud accounts registered in mainland China to state-run Chinese servers on Wednesday along with the digital keys needed to unlock them. > In the past, if Chinese authorities wanted to access Apple's user data, they had to go through an international legal process and comply with U.S. laws on user rights, according to Ronald Deibert, director of the University of Toronto's Citizen Lab, which studies the intersection of digital policy and human rights. > "They will no longer have to do so if iCloud and cryptographic keys are located in China's jurisdiction," he told CNNMoney. https://money.cnn.com/2018/02/28/technology/apple-icloud-data-china/index.html https://money.cnn.com/2018/02/28/technology/apple-icloud-dat...