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They've built browsers, standards, protocols, libraries, and frameworks for the web. They've contributed more to the web than probably any company outside of C

They've built browsers, standards, protocols, libraries, and frameworks for the web. They've contributed more to the web than probably any company outside of CERN.

ramraj07 7y ago
And we're all poorer for it. They have taken a public service and molded into something that makes money for them and only for them. And all the while (maybe gradually) they've masqueraded as some benevolent philanthropy. The day "don't be evil" came off their motto is the day they conceded they are evil. At least as evil as any publicly trading company has to be.
- SquareWheel 7y ago
  Releasing hundreds of open-source tools and donating protocols to standards bodies is really not what I would consider evil. The web is a thousand times better now than it was ten years ago. And despite the frequent misinformation, "Don't be evil" has never once left their code of conduct.
  - hddherman 7y ago
    The web is better in some technical aspects, certainly, but much worse regarding privacy, mass surveillance and data collection.
  - JohnFen 7y ago
    > The web is a thousand times better now than it was ten years ago. I disagree wholeheartedly. I think the web is much worse than it was ten years ago, and the trendline indicates that it will continue on that trajectory.
    - SquareWheel 7y ago
      I find it significantly better as both a user and developer, but of course it is a subjective thing.
      - colecut 7y ago
        I think it's much worse as a user (ads everywhere disguised as informative articles, bloated websites, constant tracking, consolidation of websites into a few corporate silos) and also much worse as a developer (wow wtf javascript frameworks)
      - JohnFen 7y ago
        As a developer, maybe -- I'm not a web dev, so I have no way of knowing. As a web user, though, it's substantially worse for me. Websites tend to have less substance and useful information, they tend to be flashier and harder to use, the ubiquitous tracking is completely unacceptable, and the web is becoming increasingly opaque and dangerous as more and more of it requires client-side scripting and the like in order to function. As the web gets smaller and smaller for me every day, I honestly think that I'll see the day when the web is something that I will largely stop using altogether.
    - arexxbifs 7y ago
      I honestly think peak web was reached some time around 2003.
  - justtopostthis3 7y ago
    > The web is a thousand times better now than it was ten years ago. How?? For who?? The web in 2010: type something into Google, click first result, enjoy life The web in 2020: type something into Google, try to figure out which results are ads, click several results before anything is useful, click through cookie disclaimer, refuse to allow notifications, decline to download the mobile app, attempt to dismiss surprise autoplay video that pops up once you scroll, except one of 30 scripts didn't load right or something so the popup's background stays covering up the page, disable javascript in frustration. Oops, now Cloudflare thinks you're a bot and all you're allowed to do on the web any more is teach Google's AI what traffic lights and crosswalks look like.
    - arexxbifs 7y ago
      This. And don't forget constant nagging about linking everything to a Google or Facebook account. The web has turned into a nightmare for end users. I hope there will be a popular uprising of some sort, people saying that enough is enough, but I doubt it'll happen. Everyone seems happy about downloading gazillions of individual apps that are little more than wrappers for the web sites, just so the companies can get a better platform for poking around people's phones.
  - irrational 7y ago
    Were you even born 10 years ago? I'm assuming not if that is what you actually believe. I couldn't disagree more.
    - SquareWheel 7y ago
      I'm flagging your comment for abuse. I've been developing on the web for over 15 years.
      - coldtea 7y ago
        This makes the parent's point, as "for over 15 years" means you've started around 2005 -- well into the Google era. You never known the web without Google, which is why you can say "Google built the web" and other such nonsense.
        SquareWheel 7y ago
        > You never known the web without Google Of course I have. I used Ask Jeeves before Google even existed, and navigated via those awful web directory services before that. I never claimed that Google "built the web", but that they've contributed to it. You're putting words in my mouth.
        coldtea 7y ago
        >I never claimed that Google "built the web", but that they've contributed to it. You're putting words in my mouth. Is this your gig, being all touchy and getting into arguments over small stuff? You've already flagged one person for "abuse" because they said "Were you even born 10 years ago?" (such abuse!), and now you're complaining I'm "putting words in your mouth" because you "never claimed that Google "built the web". You did write, and I quote literally: "They've [Google] contributed more to the web than probably any company outside of CERN" which is pretty much the same thing in my book.
    - dang 7y ago
      Personal attacks aren't ok on HN. Please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here.
  - coldtea 7y ago
    >Releasing hundreds of open-source tools and donating protocols to standards bodies is really not what I would consider evil. The web is a thousand times better now than it was ten years ago. Is it really? I only see small marginal improvements in the technical side, and lots of losses in the freedom, privacy, quality of treatment as a customer or user, etc, side, a lot of them because of Google. >And despite the frequent misinformation, "Don't be evil" has never once left their code of conduct. Yes, it just left their actual conduct.
titzer 7y ago
Which is still dwarfed by everyone else's contribution to the web.
- rolph 7y ago
  espescially those who actually did build the web with human prosperity in mind
  - ulises314 7y ago
    Google is always thinking on human prosperity, for a small subset of humans, of course.
thrwn_frthr_awy 7y ago
Do you work at Google? All of these comments when defending Google or Facebook are almost always from employees. I could be wrong...
- SquareWheel 7y ago
  No, but I wish I did. Shillcusations aren't very nice by the way. You seemed earnest about it, but usually they're used to lazily discredit somebody without any proof.
  - thrwn_frthr_awy 7y ago
    I did and I'm sorry about that. I shouldn't have treated you that way. I do think internal corporate propaganda is a real thing from FAANG employees on HN whether intentional or not, but how I commented isn't the way to handle it.
    - SquareWheel 7y ago
      I appreciate that, thank you. I imagine there probably are a lot of FAANG employees on HN. Though in my opinion, just sharing their view isn't inherently a bad thing. It only becomes a problem when they're encouraged to share from their employers. That would be propaganda. If anything though, hearing from insiders may actually be more informative, or offer a new context that we can't see from the outside. You have to be aware of bias, but that's just as true for other comments too.
rolph 7y ago
in other words they carry and deserve the blame for sabotage of the web toward thier own end
z1023aqwdq 7y ago
All of which are either garbage or data collecting nightmares. The web was fine before Google even existed. They built a better search engine that peaked around 2004 and then went downhill.
arexxbifs 7y ago
There were browsers, standards, protocols, libraries and frameworks before Google and there is a plethora of them now, too, that have no connection to Google. Without the web, there would be no Google, but without Google, there'd still be plenty of web. Heck, if you want to talk inventions, it was Microsoft who came up with doing XMLRPC inside the browser and actually made a decent web port of Outlook using it. That alone is a pretty massive cornerstone of the modern web. Google once did a great search engine, which they're well on their way to ruining. The only other thing they've accomplished is privacy-invading copies of already existing services, which has become popular because they figured out how to offer them for "free" (I.E. monetize other people's personal data to sell ads).
- SquareWheel 7y ago
  >The only other thing they've accomplished Not creating an interactive map of the entire globe? Or upgrading email into a tag-based, nearly-infinite inbox? Or transforming the browser's security model into a multi-process, sandboxed application? It's easy to forget all the things we now take for granted.
  - arexxbifs 7y ago
    MapQuest and OpenStreetMap came before Google Maps, which in itself was mostly tech they bought from other companies. There were plenty of webmail systems before GMail - Google just had the financial capacity to offer more storage. Saying they "upgraded email" is more than a little bit steep. You might as well say they downgraded it, considering GMail's repeated and spurious blacklistings of completely legitimate domains. As for Chrome, there existed several browsers before it. Sandboxed tabs is a good idea, yes. Of course they've improved upon stuff. They've had a lot of money and great minds to throw at their products. There was even a time when I believed in and appreciated their "Don't be evil" motto. But, as with any technology, it's mostly work done standing on the shoulders of the giants that came before them. For a long time, they've been acting very carelessly with both that legacy and the one they themselves create.

They've built browsers, standards, protocols, libraries, and frameworks for the web. They've contributed more to the web than probably any company outside of CERN.

ramraj07 7y ago

And we're all poorer for it. They have taken a public service and molded into something that makes money for them and only for them. And all the while (maybe gradually) they've masqueraded as some benevolent philanthropy. The day "don't be evil" came off their motto is the day they conceded they are evil. At least as evil as any publicly trading company has to be.

SquareWheel 7y ago
Releasing hundreds of open-source tools and donating protocols to standards bodies is really not what I would consider evil. The web is a thousand times better now than it was ten years ago. And despite the frequent misinformation, "Don't be evil" has never once left their code of conduct.
- hddherman 7y ago
  The web is better in some technical aspects, certainly, but much worse regarding privacy, mass surveillance and data collection.
- JohnFen 7y ago
  > The web is a thousand times better now than it was ten years ago. I disagree wholeheartedly. I think the web is much worse than it was ten years ago, and the trendline indicates that it will continue on that trajectory.
  - SquareWheel 7y ago
    I find it significantly better as both a user and developer, but of course it is a subjective thing.
    - colecut 7y ago
      I think it's much worse as a user (ads everywhere disguised as informative articles, bloated websites, constant tracking, consolidation of websites into a few corporate silos) and also much worse as a developer (wow wtf javascript frameworks)
    - JohnFen 7y ago
      As a developer, maybe -- I'm not a web dev, so I have no way of knowing. As a web user, though, it's substantially worse for me. Websites tend to have less substance and useful information, they tend to be flashier and harder to use, the ubiquitous tracking is completely unacceptable, and the web is becoming increasingly opaque and dangerous as more and more of it requires client-side scripting and the like in order to function. As the web gets smaller and smaller for me every day, I honestly think that I'll see the day when the web is something that I will largely stop using altogether.
  - arexxbifs 7y ago
    I honestly think peak web was reached some time around 2003.
- justtopostthis3 7y ago
  > The web is a thousand times better now than it was ten years ago. How?? For who?? The web in 2010: type something into Google, click first result, enjoy life The web in 2020: type something into Google, try to figure out which results are ads, click several results before anything is useful, click through cookie disclaimer, refuse to allow notifications, decline to download the mobile app, attempt to dismiss surprise autoplay video that pops up once you scroll, except one of 30 scripts didn't load right or something so the popup's background stays covering up the page, disable javascript in frustration. Oops, now Cloudflare thinks you're a bot and all you're allowed to do on the web any more is teach Google's AI what traffic lights and crosswalks look like.
  - arexxbifs 7y ago
    This. And don't forget constant nagging about linking everything to a Google or Facebook account. The web has turned into a nightmare for end users. I hope there will be a popular uprising of some sort, people saying that enough is enough, but I doubt it'll happen. Everyone seems happy about downloading gazillions of individual apps that are little more than wrappers for the web sites, just so the companies can get a better platform for poking around people's phones.
- irrational 7y ago
  Were you even born 10 years ago? I'm assuming not if that is what you actually believe. I couldn't disagree more.
  - SquareWheel 7y ago
    I'm flagging your comment for abuse. I've been developing on the web for over 15 years.
    - coldtea 7y ago
      This makes the parent's point, as "for over 15 years" means you've started around 2005 -- well into the Google era. You never known the web without Google, which is why you can say "Google built the web" and other such nonsense.
      - SquareWheel 7y ago
        > You never known the web without Google Of course I have. I used Ask Jeeves before Google even existed, and navigated via those awful web directory services before that. I never claimed that Google "built the web", but that they've contributed to it. You're putting words in my mouth.
        coldtea 7y ago
        >I never claimed that Google "built the web", but that they've contributed to it. You're putting words in my mouth. Is this your gig, being all touchy and getting into arguments over small stuff? You've already flagged one person for "abuse" because they said "Were you even born 10 years ago?" (such abuse!), and now you're complaining I'm "putting words in your mouth" because you "never claimed that Google "built the web". You did write, and I quote literally: "They've [Google] contributed more to the web than probably any company outside of CERN" which is pretty much the same thing in my book.
  - dang 7y ago
    Personal attacks aren't ok on HN. Please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here.
- coldtea 7y ago
  >Releasing hundreds of open-source tools and donating protocols to standards bodies is really not what I would consider evil. The web is a thousand times better now than it was ten years ago. Is it really? I only see small marginal improvements in the technical side, and lots of losses in the freedom, privacy, quality of treatment as a customer or user, etc, side, a lot of them because of Google. >And despite the frequent misinformation, "Don't be evil" has never once left their code of conduct. Yes, it just left their actual conduct.

titzer 7y ago

Which is still dwarfed by everyone else's contribution to the web.

rolph 7y ago
espescially those who actually did build the web with human prosperity in mind
- ulises314 7y ago
  Google is always thinking on human prosperity, for a small subset of humans, of course.

thrwn_frthr_awy 7y ago

Do you work at Google? All of these comments when defending Google or Facebook are almost always from employees. I could be wrong...

SquareWheel 7y ago
No, but I wish I did. Shillcusations aren't very nice by the way. You seemed earnest about it, but usually they're used to lazily discredit somebody without any proof.
- thrwn_frthr_awy 7y ago
  I did and I'm sorry about that. I shouldn't have treated you that way. I do think internal corporate propaganda is a real thing from FAANG employees on HN whether intentional or not, but how I commented isn't the way to handle it.
  - SquareWheel 7y ago
    I appreciate that, thank you. I imagine there probably are a lot of FAANG employees on HN. Though in my opinion, just sharing their view isn't inherently a bad thing. It only becomes a problem when they're encouraged to share from their employers. That would be propaganda. If anything though, hearing from insiders may actually be more informative, or offer a new context that we can't see from the outside. You have to be aware of bias, but that's just as true for other comments too.

rolph 7y ago

in other words they carry and deserve the blame for sabotage of the web toward thier own end

z1023aqwdq 7y ago

All of which are either garbage or data collecting nightmares. The web was fine before Google even existed. They built a better search engine that peaked around 2004 and then went downhill.

arexxbifs 7y ago

There were browsers, standards, protocols, libraries and frameworks before Google and there is a plethora of them now, too, that have no connection to Google. Without the web, there would be no Google, but without Google, there'd still be plenty of web. Heck, if you want to talk inventions, it was Microsoft who came up with doing XMLRPC inside the browser and actually made a decent web port of Outlook using it. That alone is a pretty massive cornerstone of the modern web. Google once did a great search engine, which they're well on their way to ruining. The only other thing they've accomplished is privacy-invading copies of already existing services, which has become popular because they figured out how to offer them for "free" (I.E. monetize other people's personal data to sell ads).

SquareWheel 7y ago
>The only other thing they've accomplished Not creating an interactive map of the entire globe? Or upgrading email into a tag-based, nearly-infinite inbox? Or transforming the browser's security model into a multi-process, sandboxed application? It's easy to forget all the things we now take for granted.
- arexxbifs 7y ago
  MapQuest and OpenStreetMap came before Google Maps, which in itself was mostly tech they bought from other companies. There were plenty of webmail systems before GMail - Google just had the financial capacity to offer more storage. Saying they "upgraded email" is more than a little bit steep. You might as well say they downgraded it, considering GMail's repeated and spurious blacklistings of completely legitimate domains. As for Chrome, there existed several browsers before it. Sandboxed tabs is a good idea, yes. Of course they've improved upon stuff. They've had a lot of money and great minds to throw at their products. There was even a time when I believed in and appreciated their "Don't be evil" motto. But, as with any technology, it's mostly work done standing on the shoulders of the giants that came before them. For a long time, they've been acting very carelessly with both that legacy and the one they themselves create.