5 ms·

Agreed that candy crush as default is heinous, but it feels like "telemetry" is kind of brought up as a bogeyman. Clearly, there exist scenarios where device ow

Agreed that candy crush as default is heinous, but it feels like "telemetry" is kind of brought up as a bogeyman. Clearly, there exist scenarios where device owners have a legitimate need for no (or minimal, considering updates) communication with MS regarding device activity, but that's not generally the case for the average PC user. I want my OS maker to get stack traces from stacks so that they can fix crashes. I want my OS maker to receive actionable data on highly-used features so that they can effectively prioritize what to improve and what can be culled. (And obviously, I want this data to be treated with appropriate security.) edit: To clarify, users should be able to disable telemetry - it's the anti-telemetry rhetoric I find to be overblown - in general what I hear isn't nearly as nuanced as the replies here, it's simply blanket opposition to all telemetry.

reaperducer 7y ago
I want my OS maker to get stack traces from stacks so that they can fix crashes I want my OS maker to ask for stack traces so they can fix crashes. I do not want this to be a default with no way to opt out. Even crash data is my data, not Microsoft's, and Microsoft should ask my permission each time it happens the way that MacOS does. Then again, that might make people aware of how often programs go sideways on Windows, which is not in Microsoft's interest.
- ghostbrainalpha 7y ago
  That's funny, but they can only ask ONCE if they can always send crash data, not ask again every time the program crashes, which solves that problem.
  - reaperducer 7y ago
    I think it's (and should be) up to the operating system, not the vendor. When programs eat themselves on macOS I get the option to send debug information to the programmer each time. Sometimes twice if the program has its own crash reporting mechanism, too (Panic's Coda, for example). Maybe there's an "always remember my selection" checkbox, but I don't remember ever seeing it, except once a year when I install the new version of macOS.
    - hombre_fatal 7y ago
      There's even a comment box where you can explain what you were doing when the error occurred. I like to think someone out there reads my helpful comments. I would love that as a client developer. :(
- thrower123 7y ago
  The Windows Error Reporter has existed since forever. I don't understand why people are acting as though this is a new nefarious thing in Windows 10.
  - CamperBob2 7y ago
    Because it's no longer optional. Even if you think you're turning it off, they'll just redefine or outright revert the preference setting whenever they feel like it, typically as part of a forced update. The user's opinions and desires are not on anybody's radar at MS, except to then extent that they coincide with the company's own desires.
  - jtdev 7y ago
    Maybe consumers are simply becoming more aware.
  - tinus_hn 7y ago
    Windows Error Reporter doesn’t record everything you click. Microsoft Telemetry does.
wolfgke 7y ago
> Agreed that candy crush as default is heinous, but it feels like "telemetry" is kind of brought up as a bogeyman. In Germany, such "spying" features are really detested; there exists a very privacy-conscious culture that perhaps has to do with the experience of two surveillance states on German ground of which one only ceased to exist about 30 years ago.
- ChuckNorris89 7y ago
  No offense, but if Germans were so focused on online privacy they wouldn't spend so much time and money on Facebook/YouTube/Amazon/$FAANGCORP.
  - wolfgke 7y ago
    Indeed, as native German, I observe lots of people that try to avoid having a Google account (in particular for email) (to at least separate the services that can be provided by a different vendor [email] from the Google account) and explicitly completely delete accounts of social networks (in particular Facebook/WhatsApp) if they ever had one. To give an example: When at the regular's table of some group (details shall not matter) someone suggested to form a WhatsApp group, some people gave very direct and harsh words. I personally observe that when I think about buying something at Amazon, I ask myself and look whether there also exists another possible vendor. So the mentality that I described is in real - it's just not possible to avoid said "Facebook/YouTube/Amazon/$FAANGCORP" completely for now; so you look for areas where you can avoid them - step by step.
    - mbeex 7y ago
      > So the mentality that I described is in real .. but even anecdotal evidence. I says nothing about the general situation. Personally. I never felt the need for FB. For a few years now my - large - family is running Threema. All of them, even the old folk. This is good for us, but especially the youngsters have parallel installations of WA, Signal, Telegram etc.. This is also anecdotal and I'm afraid, not typical. Some months ago I became member of a Skat club (a popular german card game). All the people are very different in social beckground to me and even to each other - real estate shark, musician, blue collar worker and more - and know what? > some people gave very direct and harsh words. I got these words for NOT accepting WA. Eventually, we settled to Signal - but even that not unanimously and it remains a slightly frustrating communication model.
tremon 7y ago
Clearly, there exist scenarios where device owners have a legitimate need for no communication with MS regarding device activity, but that's not generally the case for the average PC user Do you really believe yourself to be the ultimate arbiter of that question, for all PC users? Or just for the average ones?
- Marsymars 7y ago
  I meant that observationally, the average home user I see who is hell-bent against Windows telemetry doesn't have reasons for it that are comparable to organizations with well-reasoned processes and procedures regarding telemetry. I didn't mean to imply that said user shouldn't have the option to disable telemetry, even for no reason at all.
jmull 7y ago
If MS were bound to only used telemetry in the way you suggest, it might be fine. But they specifically are not. Here's the first part under "How we use personal data" in their privacy statement: Microsoft uses the data we collect to provide you with rich, interactive experiences. In particular, we use data to: * Provide our products, which includes updating, securing, and troubleshooting, as well as providing support. It also includes sharing data, when it is required to provide the service or carry out the transactions you request. * Improve and develop our products. * Personalize our products and make recommendations. * Advertise and market to you, which includes sending promotional communications, targeting advertising, and presenting you with relevant offers. So, points one and two are nice. Three might be nice, but really depends on the motivation for the personalization and recommendations. Four is full on, deep advertising. BTW, you may want to make a distinction between your personal data and telemetry, but MS does not make any such distinction. Also, in the next section, MS notes they'll share your data with anyone they want. (https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-us/privacystatement https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-us/privacystatement)
- Marsymars 7y ago
  I would be thrilled if MS (and Apple, for that matter) would divest themselves of all advertising-related business units and declare themselves explicitly anti-user-advertising, but to me that seems largely orthogonal to telemetry, despite the fact that their current legalese has put the two into a blender. I can be anti-advertising and pro-privacy without being anti-telemetry.
  - jmull 7y ago
    Just as long as you understand MS will be using the telemetry data for advertising and marketing purposes (in addition to the more helpful purposes you are expecting).
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- ryanisnan 7y ago
  This comment right here. Why anyone would give any corporation the benefit of the doubt when it comes to how telemetry data is used is beyond me. Especially in cases like Microsoft, where they are very clearly using it for advertising. Talk about head in the sand.
toohotatopic 7y ago
It's not only device activity. If you are a company and you have contracts that guarantee privacy for the data that you process, how can you uphold those contracts if you cannot disable telemetry?
- Silhouette 7y ago
  You can't. And even if you could, the automatic updates could change things later so you couldn't. Several governments and their regulators in the EU are currently at various stages of looking into this issue, because it may be literally impossible to be GDPR compliant if you're processing personal data on a system running a Windows 10 edition that requires this stuff. And that's just the literally-breaking-the-law part as it relates to personal data in general. You might also have contractual obligations like NDAs, or perhaps some more specific legal obligations to protect data if you work in healthcare, finance, national security, etc.
JohnFen 7y ago
> Clearly, there exist scenarios where device owners have a legitimate need for no (or minimal, considering updates) communication with MS regarding device activity, but that's not generally the case for the average PC user. I find it troubling that anyone thinks that a user must have a "legitimate need" (whatever that is) to justify not wanting to be spied on. Simply not wanting your machine to send data to should be more than enough of a need. > edit: To clarify, users should be able to disable telemetry Oh, then we are completely on the same page. It appeared that you were arguing in favor of forced telemetry for "average PC users".
mkup 7y ago
Telemetry is far more than stack traces. It includes domain names of visited websites, names of executable files you've run, names of documents you've opened via explorer, clipboard contents, keyboard logs and other privacy-sensitive data. And switching between Basic and Full levels of telemetry in settings doesn't help too much. According to BSI (project SiSyPHuS), number of event providers for Basic telemetry level is 410, and for Full level there are 422 ETW providers.
- tobias3 7y ago
  Do you have any source on that? Specifically, it has the option to enable a "Diagnostic Data Viewer" that shows the data it sends (as JSON). I've just enabled that, so there is not much to see, but so far it has only transmitted version information of OS software components. (Mini-) crash dumps can contain all kinds of information but that is kind of unavoidable. As a developer, I'm gratefull whenever I get a core/crash dump, but yes, it shouldn't be automatic. Here's a full list of data it seems to send https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/privacy/windows-diagnostic-data https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/privacy/windows-dia... (at full telemetry level)
  - mkup 7y ago
    https://www.pcministry.com/win10_telemetry/summary_stats_and_conclusions/ https://www.pcministry.com/win10_telemetry/summary_stats_and... Windows 10, when left alone for 1 year, sends about 4.5 Gb of outgoing data. There are no apps running all this time, so there are no crash reports to submit.
starsinspace 7y ago
To me, "telemetry" is a violation of boundaries. And I don't think it's necessary to provide legitimation scenarios for not wanting that. For decades I have used personal computers and it was my machine and nobody constantly observed what I was doing with it. With "telemetry" I'm not sure about the relation anymore - do I own the machine or does the machine own me? It's a loss of control, I'm not able to make the decisions anymore about what happens and what doesn't.
vetinari 7y ago
> I want my OS maker to get stack traces from stacks so that they can fix crashes. I want my OS maker to receive actionable data on highly-used features so that they can effectively prioritize what to improve and what can be culled. Why do you think this is even needed? Every software package used by more users than nobody (by Joel Spolsky definition) has their bug report system full of bugs, and solving them would take years of doing nothing but butfixing. Your telemetry won't help prioritizing them, or even lead to solving them, but it will be mined for info that can be used to monetize your behavior.
justinclift 7y ago
> ... it's simply blanket opposition to all telemetry. You make that sound like a bad thing, when it's not. MS deciding they control what my computer does, rather than me - the owner - is fundamentally just not on. The concept is extremely basic. No idea why many other people seem to not grasp it, let alone MS. :(
comex 7y ago
> edit: To clarify, users should be able to disable telemetry - it's the anti-telemetry rhetoric I find to be overblown - in general what I hear isn't nearly as nuanced as the replies here, it's simply blanket opposition to all telemetry. Respect begets respect. If Microsoft gave me the choice to disable telemetry, I would probably leave it on. The fact that they don't give me that choice motivates me to find a third-party tool to disable it, if only as a way to express my annoyance. Yes, I know, I'm not representative of the vast majority of users.
Can_Not 7y ago
> but it feels like "telemetry" is kind of brought up as a bogeyman. It is a real problem, not a bogeyman, when it's actually turning itself back on when we turn it off.

reaperducer 7y ago

I want my OS maker to get stack traces from stacks so that they can fix crashes I want my OS maker to ask for stack traces so they can fix crashes. I do not want this to be a default with no way to opt out. Even crash data is my data, not Microsoft's, and Microsoft should ask my permission each time it happens the way that MacOS does. Then again, that might make people aware of how often programs go sideways on Windows, which is not in Microsoft's interest.

ghostbrainalpha 7y ago
That's funny, but they can only ask ONCE if they can always send crash data, not ask again every time the program crashes, which solves that problem.
- reaperducer 7y ago
  I think it's (and should be) up to the operating system, not the vendor. When programs eat themselves on macOS I get the option to send debug information to the programmer each time. Sometimes twice if the program has its own crash reporting mechanism, too (Panic's Coda, for example). Maybe there's an "always remember my selection" checkbox, but I don't remember ever seeing it, except once a year when I install the new version of macOS.
  - hombre_fatal 7y ago
    There's even a comment box where you can explain what you were doing when the error occurred. I like to think someone out there reads my helpful comments. I would love that as a client developer. :(
thrower123 7y ago
The Windows Error Reporter has existed since forever. I don't understand why people are acting as though this is a new nefarious thing in Windows 10.
- CamperBob2 7y ago
  Because it's no longer optional. Even if you think you're turning it off, they'll just redefine or outright revert the preference setting whenever they feel like it, typically as part of a forced update. The user's opinions and desires are not on anybody's radar at MS, except to then extent that they coincide with the company's own desires.
- jtdev 7y ago
  Maybe consumers are simply becoming more aware.
- tinus_hn 7y ago
  Windows Error Reporter doesn’t record everything you click. Microsoft Telemetry does.

wolfgke 7y ago

> Agreed that candy crush as default is heinous, but it feels like "telemetry" is kind of brought up as a bogeyman. In Germany, such "spying" features are really detested; there exists a very privacy-conscious culture that perhaps has to do with the experience of two surveillance states on German ground of which one only ceased to exist about 30 years ago.

ChuckNorris89 7y ago
No offense, but if Germans were so focused on online privacy they wouldn't spend so much time and money on Facebook/YouTube/Amazon/$FAANGCORP.
- wolfgke 7y ago
  Indeed, as native German, I observe lots of people that try to avoid having a Google account (in particular for email) (to at least separate the services that can be provided by a different vendor [email] from the Google account) and explicitly completely delete accounts of social networks (in particular Facebook/WhatsApp) if they ever had one. To give an example: When at the regular's table of some group (details shall not matter) someone suggested to form a WhatsApp group, some people gave very direct and harsh words. I personally observe that when I think about buying something at Amazon, I ask myself and look whether there also exists another possible vendor. So the mentality that I described is in real - it's just not possible to avoid said "Facebook/YouTube/Amazon/$FAANGCORP" completely for now; so you look for areas where you can avoid them - step by step.
  - mbeex 7y ago
    > So the mentality that I described is in real .. but even anecdotal evidence. I says nothing about the general situation. Personally. I never felt the need for FB. For a few years now my - large - family is running Threema. All of them, even the old folk. This is good for us, but especially the youngsters have parallel installations of WA, Signal, Telegram etc.. This is also anecdotal and I'm afraid, not typical. Some months ago I became member of a Skat club (a popular german card game). All the people are very different in social beckground to me and even to each other - real estate shark, musician, blue collar worker and more - and know what? > some people gave very direct and harsh words. I got these words for NOT accepting WA. Eventually, we settled to Signal - but even that not unanimously and it remains a slightly frustrating communication model.

tremon 7y ago

Clearly, there exist scenarios where device owners have a legitimate need for no communication with MS regarding device activity, but that's not generally the case for the average PC user Do you really believe yourself to be the ultimate arbiter of that question, for all PC users? Or just for the average ones?

Marsymars 7y ago
I meant that observationally, the average home user I see who is hell-bent against Windows telemetry doesn't have reasons for it that are comparable to organizations with well-reasoned processes and procedures regarding telemetry. I didn't mean to imply that said user shouldn't have the option to disable telemetry, even for no reason at all.

jmull 7y ago

If MS were bound to only used telemetry in the way you suggest, it might be fine. But they specifically are not. Here's the first part under "How we use personal data" in their privacy statement: Microsoft uses the data we collect to provide you with rich, interactive experiences. In particular, we use data to: * Provide our products, which includes updating, securing, and troubleshooting, as well as providing support. It also includes sharing data, when it is required to provide the service or carry out the transactions you request. * Improve and develop our products. * Personalize our products and make recommendations. * Advertise and market to you, which includes sending promotional communications, targeting advertising, and presenting you with relevant offers. So, points one and two are nice. Three might be nice, but really depends on the motivation for the personalization and recommendations. Four is full on, deep advertising. BTW, you may want to make a distinction between your personal data and telemetry, but MS does not make any such distinction. Also, in the next section, MS notes they'll share your data with anyone they want. (https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-us/privacystatement https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-us/privacystatement)

Marsymars 7y ago
I would be thrilled if MS (and Apple, for that matter) would divest themselves of all advertising-related business units and declare themselves explicitly anti-user-advertising, but to me that seems largely orthogonal to telemetry, despite the fact that their current legalese has put the two into a blender. I can be anti-advertising and pro-privacy without being anti-telemetry.
- jmull 7y ago
  Just as long as you understand MS will be using the telemetry data for advertising and marketing purposes (in addition to the more helpful purposes you are expecting).
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
ryanisnan 7y ago
This comment right here. Why anyone would give any corporation the benefit of the doubt when it comes to how telemetry data is used is beyond me. Especially in cases like Microsoft, where they are very clearly using it for advertising. Talk about head in the sand.

toohotatopic 7y ago

It's not only device activity. If you are a company and you have contracts that guarantee privacy for the data that you process, how can you uphold those contracts if you cannot disable telemetry?

Silhouette 7y ago
You can't. And even if you could, the automatic updates could change things later so you couldn't. Several governments and their regulators in the EU are currently at various stages of looking into this issue, because it may be literally impossible to be GDPR compliant if you're processing personal data on a system running a Windows 10 edition that requires this stuff. And that's just the literally-breaking-the-law part as it relates to personal data in general. You might also have contractual obligations like NDAs, or perhaps some more specific legal obligations to protect data if you work in healthcare, finance, national security, etc.

JohnFen 7y ago

> Clearly, there exist scenarios where device owners have a legitimate need for no (or minimal, considering updates) communication with MS regarding device activity, but that's not generally the case for the average PC user. I find it troubling that anyone thinks that a user must have a "legitimate need" (whatever that is) to justify not wanting to be spied on. Simply not wanting your machine to send data to should be more than enough of a need. > edit: To clarify, users should be able to disable telemetry Oh, then we are completely on the same page. It appeared that you were arguing in favor of forced telemetry for "average PC users".

mkup 7y ago

Telemetry is far more than stack traces. It includes domain names of visited websites, names of executable files you've run, names of documents you've opened via explorer, clipboard contents, keyboard logs and other privacy-sensitive data. And switching between Basic and Full levels of telemetry in settings doesn't help too much. According to BSI (project SiSyPHuS), number of event providers for Basic telemetry level is 410, and for Full level there are 422 ETW providers.

tobias3 7y ago
Do you have any source on that? Specifically, it has the option to enable a "Diagnostic Data Viewer" that shows the data it sends (as JSON). I've just enabled that, so there is not much to see, but so far it has only transmitted version information of OS software components. (Mini-) crash dumps can contain all kinds of information but that is kind of unavoidable. As a developer, I'm gratefull whenever I get a core/crash dump, but yes, it shouldn't be automatic. Here's a full list of data it seems to send https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/privacy/windows-diagnostic-data https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/privacy/windows-dia... (at full telemetry level)
- mkup 7y ago
  https://www.pcministry.com/win10_telemetry/summary_stats_and_conclusions/ https://www.pcministry.com/win10_telemetry/summary_stats_and... Windows 10, when left alone for 1 year, sends about 4.5 Gb of outgoing data. There are no apps running all this time, so there are no crash reports to submit.

starsinspace 7y ago

To me, "telemetry" is a violation of boundaries. And I don't think it's necessary to provide legitimation scenarios for not wanting that. For decades I have used personal computers and it was my machine and nobody constantly observed what I was doing with it. With "telemetry" I'm not sure about the relation anymore - do I own the machine or does the machine own me? It's a loss of control, I'm not able to make the decisions anymore about what happens and what doesn't.

vetinari 7y ago

> I want my OS maker to get stack traces from stacks so that they can fix crashes. I want my OS maker to receive actionable data on highly-used features so that they can effectively prioritize what to improve and what can be culled. Why do you think this is even needed? Every software package used by more users than nobody (by Joel Spolsky definition) has their bug report system full of bugs, and solving them would take years of doing nothing but butfixing. Your telemetry won't help prioritizing them, or even lead to solving them, but it will be mined for info that can be used to monetize your behavior.

justinclift 7y ago

> ... it's simply blanket opposition to all telemetry. You make that sound like a bad thing, when it's not. MS deciding they control what my computer does, rather than me - the owner - is fundamentally just not on. The concept is extremely basic. No idea why many other people seem to not grasp it, let alone MS. :(

comex 7y ago

> edit: To clarify, users should be able to disable telemetry - it's the anti-telemetry rhetoric I find to be overblown - in general what I hear isn't nearly as nuanced as the replies here, it's simply blanket opposition to all telemetry. Respect begets respect. If Microsoft gave me the choice to disable telemetry, I would probably leave it on. The fact that they don't give me that choice motivates me to find a third-party tool to disable it, if only as a way to express my annoyance. Yes, I know, I'm not representative of the vast majority of users.

Can_Not 7y ago

> but it feels like "telemetry" is kind of brought up as a bogeyman. It is a real problem, not a bogeyman, when it's actually turning itself back on when we turn it off.