6 ms·

Kids do program – Experiences from the course

67 points by stojano 7y ago

szopa 7y ago
Scratch is right now my 6yo's favorite toy. It beats the Lego robot because you don't have to worry about having the right parts and you can concentrate on the "fun parts," that is programming. What really amazes me was how different the progression looked from what I was expecting. The move from "the dinosaur moves and that is fun" to fully fleshed mini games took me by surprise. No linearity there. What I really appreciate about Scratch is how you can use the system without having to understand big parts of it. For example, one of the most complicated parts is the sprite editor (which does both vector and raster graphics). However, there's a huge library of sprites, so it's not a problem. You'll only have to learn the editor when your ambitions grow and you want custom sprites. Another curious thing is that Scratch encourages concurrent code right off the bat (every script runs in their own thread). My son is coming up with rather elegant patterns which are nevertheless quite different from my intuition, like controlling the sprite's horizontal and vertical movement in separate scripts – which actually gives you easier to understand code. Finally, there's a social aspect – discovering programs written by other kids and analyzing their code, and remixing them for your own projects. My son is a great fan of "Kimberly from Canada" who did a lot of "cook your own pizza" type of games, which have been a big inspiration.
- freediver 7y ago
  As someone who has started programming at age 8, I find Scratch inadequate. It may teach kids how to code, but it doesn't teach coding. There is something in writing every letter of a command when you are a kid. There is something that gets born inside when you write and execute this for the first time: 10 PRINT "HELLO" 20 GOTO 10 RUN My kid is 8 now and I plan to introduce her to an online C64 emulator and BASIC. If it does not stick, there is nothing that Scratch will be able to do. https://floooh.github.io/tiny8bit/c64.html https://floooh.github.io/tiny8bit/c64.html
  - racl101 7y ago
    I've seen a lot of actual developers try Scratch and think WTF is this? How do I .....? It's weird how you need to rewire your brain for it.
  - teekert 7y ago
    If it does not stick, there is nothing that Scratch will be able to do. Those are some pretty strong words. Did you do any research on this topic?
    - freediver 7y ago
      No, just intuitevely. Hard to imagine becoming a great cook by pointing and clicking. Or a great pianist by pointing and clicking. A big part of what makes us human is what continous practice does to our brains.
      - racl101 7y ago
        Have to agree with this. I find that Scratch removes the dangers and perils of programming for any level, which, unfortunately, are the parts that you learn the most from. Think about when you began to code. You tried printing 'Hello World' and that was good. Then you tried doing some more, and quickly ran into some trouble. At this crucial point, is where you are bound to learn the most. Troubleshooting is part and parcel of the experience. People need need to experience those painful points to grow, even young programmers.
        tashoecraft 7y ago
        Feel like you're taking your own experience and extrapolating. Assuming that in order to program is must be this gauntlet of difficulty one must overcome in order to be a true programmer. Many people may give up when they encounter this trouble, but it doesn't mean they can't program eventually. Scratch may give them the tools they need to see what programming can do, then moving on from there.
        lubujackson 7y ago
brutt 7y ago
Their postures are awful. They will have myopia and damaged spine soon.
hmlwilliams 7y ago
Thank you for posting this, I also volunteer in a local school running a Code Club. I would be very much interested to know how you handle differences in age group. I sometimes struggle as the group ranges in age from 4/5 yo to 11 yo. Finding suitable material that can be approachable for all is nigh on impossible and being only one individual I do not have the capacity to have multiple courses running in the same hour.
- a-saleh 7y ago
  Wow that is a giant difference, especially in cognitive capacity. I.e. by 11 you should be able to understand more or less anything (i.e. including abstraction, recursion, e.t.c) ... but a 5 yo might just be comprehending the number-symbol/object-count correspondence. you could try to approach with a single theme? I.e. I heard from talk by Felienne Hermans, that her code club used alot of sprites/images from the Donald Duck comics, as everybody was reading that, and then you could scale by ability? I.e. younger kids could do just animations, older kids interactions?
- edtechdev 7y ago
  The main challenge is students who can't read yet vs. those who can. In an after-school elementary school coding club I did a while back, I mainly used https://code.org/ https://code.org/ If Scratch is too advanced for the youngest of kids, try ScratchJr: http://www.scratchjr.org/ http://www.scratchjr.org/ The kids also really liked Lightbot. Unfortunately, the web version uses Flash which means it won't run nowadays on most computers. There are apps though, including a LightBotJr version for 4+. Here's a google doc with several other elementary school coding & robotics resources, although I haven't updated it in a while: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1r1b2CM1uTdST47IbWa7zlZYmbfoqrgYSeym2inUvnFo/edit https://docs.google.com/document/d/1r1b2CM1uTdST47IbWa7zlZYm...
- stojano 7y ago
  Hi The first time I had this course, the kids were between 8 and 10. The differences in cognitive behaviour were minimal. Just some of them were a little bit slower than the others, but at the end they helped each other and everyone was finished at time. I see, 4/5yrs would be much trickier. For our next course it will be a little bit more "diverse". The oldest application is 14, and some of the former kids are coming again. So it will be the whole spectrum 8-14. I will see in the first lessons how I can separate them or offer different materials. This time I'll offer some intro to Python. Maybe, one or the other will then grab this path. I admit preparation of the materials was quit time consuming... more as I thought in the beginning it would be. But for the second course, I have already a bunch of prepared stuff.
jasonkester 7y ago
I've personally never been a fan of drag/drop puzzle-piece coding things like Scratch for teaching programming to kids. It just seems like it's sending them down this dead end path. It took me a long time to find something better, and I've finally settled on Pico-8. It's the perfect combination of a simplified language that you have to actually type out in a stripped down editor, but with built in sprite and sound-effect tools and game loop methods that you can use to quickly get up and running with an actual 2d game. It gets right to the heart of the great learning machines from the 80s (Apple ][, C64, TRS-80, Atari 400), but somehow fills in all the bits we've nostalgically romanticized over that would have made those machines a bad choice for kids today. Definitely check it out if you're thinking of getting your kids into programming: https://www.lexaloffle.com/pico-8.php https://www.lexaloffle.com/pico-8.php
- raegis 7y ago
  Can you say something about your child's experience using Pico-8?
  - ArtWomb 7y ago
    I tried introducing a few "under-10s" to the joys of Pico-8 But it actually requires tons of patience if you really drill down into it I made the fatal mistake of firing up a GameBoy emulator to show them examples of what they may create and naturally they became obsessed with classic pokemeon crystal instead ;)
  - jasonkester 7y ago
    Really positive thus far. We'd done a bit of javascript before in the browser so he had some fundamentals already but it was always a bit distracting to have to deal with the additional HTML and CSS bits, as well as having to introduce the file system and an external editor. But yeah, the 8 year old had a game up and running the first day, and the 5 year old picked up enough just watching to suggest code changes. I set up an old laptop to boot straight into fullscreen pico8 so they can just open the machine and get moving. Just like my overly romanticized memories of myself at the same age.
  - 7y ago
OscarTheGrinch 7y ago
Anyone know why Scratch lite is so limited on the iOS? My 2 year old has nearly mastered all the features but I'm hesitant to let him loose on a laptop.
- CDSlice 7y ago
  With Scratch 3.0 you can run the full web based Scratch on any iOS device, although I doubt it would be a good experience on anything other than an iPad.
ArtWomb 7y ago
>>> with this individualization I was flabbergasted a few times Don't be! Kids are digital natives. And given programming tools designed specifically for K-12 they will produce useful programs. Operational applications beyond mere Roblox zombie shooters to manage their increasingly complex young lives ;) I was working with AWS last summer with the goal of creating a cloud based IDE for ChromeOS. And I feel the current barrier is programming languages and paradigms as they exist today. Visual logic languages and blocks programming, dating back to Turtle Graphics and the original Logo designs from 1967 by Wally Feurzeig, Seymour Papert, and Cynthia Solomon have been used for generations. But I could see the next evolution as being voice based. In the era of Siri and Alexa, perhaps kids should be composing blocks as parameterized tasks spoken in natural human langauge. This is a big undertaking and more than I can handle at the moment, but I have been experimenting with a Google Nest Mini, and even simple trivia games or joke applications can amuse kids for hours. "Hey Google, what's the weather like on Mars today" opens a portal to infinite curiosity and exploration about the cosmos we live in. The other era of promise I've seen is the engagement around simple physics games and simulations. Think of the level design mode in 2D collision games like "Crush the Castle" or "Angry Birds". With the amount of available energy kids have they are able to build epic structures and take delight in watching them fracture unpredictably. Bottom line is these games and interfaces have to get much better. And that requires targeted investment as well as vision
pdm55 7y ago
It's obvious from your comments that you are going about educating your kids in the right way - a fun & interesting way that lets them explore. And the interaction with you is probably what they like best about what you are doing. For others looking for text-based programming for kids, there is SmallBasic https://smallbasic-publicwebsite.azurewebsites.net/ https://smallbasic-publicwebsite.azurewebsites.net/ And another blocky course is https://studio.code.org/s/express-2019 https://studio.code.org/s/express-2019 (You can even toggle to show javascript.)
tmaly 7y ago
I had a very similar experience last month teaching elementary kids Scratch. I did a group activity building a few games. Then I challenged kids to create there own versions. Some of the older elementary kids really did a great job making their own games. They want me to come back in to teach more. I have been working on an online course for kids on the side since Summer. They definitely enjoy the creativity aspects.

67 points by stojano 7y ago

Scratch is right now my 6yo's favorite toy. It beats the Lego robot because you don't have to worry about having the right parts and you can concentrate on the "fun parts," that is programming. What really amazes me was how different the progression looked from what I was expecting. The move from "the dinosaur moves and that is fun" to fully fleshed mini games took me by surprise. No linearity there. What I really appreciate about Scratch is how you can use the system without having to understand big parts of it. For example, one of the most complicated parts is the sprite editor (which does both vector and raster graphics). However, there's a huge library of sprites, so it's not a problem. You'll only have to learn the editor when your ambitions grow and you want custom sprites. Another curious thing is that Scratch encourages concurrent code right off the bat (every script runs in their own thread). My son is coming up with rather elegant patterns which are nevertheless quite different from my intuition, like controlling the sprite's horizontal and vertical movement in separate scripts – which actually gives you easier to understand code. Finally, there's a social aspect – discovering programs written by other kids and analyzing their code, and remixing them for your own projects. My son is a great fan of "Kimberly from Canada" who did a lot of "cook your own pizza" type of games, which have been a big inspiration.

freediver 7y ago
As someone who has started programming at age 8, I find Scratch inadequate. It may teach kids how to code, but it doesn't teach coding. There is something in writing every letter of a command when you are a kid. There is something that gets born inside when you write and execute this for the first time: 10 PRINT "HELLO" 20 GOTO 10 RUN My kid is 8 now and I plan to introduce her to an online C64 emulator and BASIC. If it does not stick, there is nothing that Scratch will be able to do. https://floooh.github.io/tiny8bit/c64.html https://floooh.github.io/tiny8bit/c64.html
- racl101 7y ago
  I've seen a lot of actual developers try Scratch and think WTF is this? How do I .....? It's weird how you need to rewire your brain for it.
- teekert 7y ago
  If it does not stick, there is nothing that Scratch will be able to do. Those are some pretty strong words. Did you do any research on this topic?
  - freediver 7y ago
    No, just intuitevely. Hard to imagine becoming a great cook by pointing and clicking. Or a great pianist by pointing and clicking. A big part of what makes us human is what continous practice does to our brains.
    - racl101 7y ago
      Have to agree with this. I find that Scratch removes the dangers and perils of programming for any level, which, unfortunately, are the parts that you learn the most from. Think about when you began to code. You tried printing 'Hello World' and that was good. Then you tried doing some more, and quickly ran into some trouble. At this crucial point, is where you are bound to learn the most. Troubleshooting is part and parcel of the experience. People need need to experience those painful points to grow, even young programmers.
      - tashoecraft 7y ago
        Feel like you're taking your own experience and extrapolating. Assuming that in order to program is must be this gauntlet of difficulty one must overcome in order to be a true programmer. Many people may give up when they encounter this trouble, but it doesn't mean they can't program eventually. Scratch may give them the tools they need to see what programming can do, then moving on from there.
      - lubujackson 7y ago

brutt 7y ago

Their postures are awful. They will have myopia and damaged spine soon.

hmlwilliams 7y ago

Thank you for posting this, I also volunteer in a local school running a Code Club. I would be very much interested to know how you handle differences in age group. I sometimes struggle as the group ranges in age from 4/5 yo to 11 yo. Finding suitable material that can be approachable for all is nigh on impossible and being only one individual I do not have the capacity to have multiple courses running in the same hour.

a-saleh 7y ago
Wow that is a giant difference, especially in cognitive capacity. I.e. by 11 you should be able to understand more or less anything (i.e. including abstraction, recursion, e.t.c) ... but a 5 yo might just be comprehending the number-symbol/object-count correspondence. you could try to approach with a single theme? I.e. I heard from talk by Felienne Hermans, that her code club used alot of sprites/images from the Donald Duck comics, as everybody was reading that, and then you could scale by ability? I.e. younger kids could do just animations, older kids interactions?
edtechdev 7y ago
The main challenge is students who can't read yet vs. those who can. In an after-school elementary school coding club I did a while back, I mainly used https://code.org/ https://code.org/ If Scratch is too advanced for the youngest of kids, try ScratchJr: http://www.scratchjr.org/ http://www.scratchjr.org/ The kids also really liked Lightbot. Unfortunately, the web version uses Flash which means it won't run nowadays on most computers. There are apps though, including a LightBotJr version for 4+. Here's a google doc with several other elementary school coding & robotics resources, although I haven't updated it in a while: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1r1b2CM1uTdST47IbWa7zlZYmbfoqrgYSeym2inUvnFo/edit https://docs.google.com/document/d/1r1b2CM1uTdST47IbWa7zlZYm...
stojano 7y ago
Hi The first time I had this course, the kids were between 8 and 10. The differences in cognitive behaviour were minimal. Just some of them were a little bit slower than the others, but at the end they helped each other and everyone was finished at time. I see, 4/5yrs would be much trickier. For our next course it will be a little bit more "diverse". The oldest application is 14, and some of the former kids are coming again. So it will be the whole spectrum 8-14. I will see in the first lessons how I can separate them or offer different materials. This time I'll offer some intro to Python. Maybe, one or the other will then grab this path. I admit preparation of the materials was quit time consuming... more as I thought in the beginning it would be. But for the second course, I have already a bunch of prepared stuff.

jasonkester 7y ago

I've personally never been a fan of drag/drop puzzle-piece coding things like Scratch for teaching programming to kids. It just seems like it's sending them down this dead end path. It took me a long time to find something better, and I've finally settled on Pico-8. It's the perfect combination of a simplified language that you have to actually type out in a stripped down editor, but with built in sprite and sound-effect tools and game loop methods that you can use to quickly get up and running with an actual 2d game. It gets right to the heart of the great learning machines from the 80s (Apple ][, C64, TRS-80, Atari 400), but somehow fills in all the bits we've nostalgically romanticized over that would have made those machines a bad choice for kids today. Definitely check it out if you're thinking of getting your kids into programming: https://www.lexaloffle.com/pico-8.php https://www.lexaloffle.com/pico-8.php

raegis 7y ago
Can you say something about your child's experience using Pico-8?
- ArtWomb 7y ago
  I tried introducing a few "under-10s" to the joys of Pico-8 But it actually requires tons of patience if you really drill down into it I made the fatal mistake of firing up a GameBoy emulator to show them examples of what they may create and naturally they became obsessed with classic pokemeon crystal instead ;)
- jasonkester 7y ago
  Really positive thus far. We'd done a bit of javascript before in the browser so he had some fundamentals already but it was always a bit distracting to have to deal with the additional HTML and CSS bits, as well as having to introduce the file system and an external editor. But yeah, the 8 year old had a game up and running the first day, and the 5 year old picked up enough just watching to suggest code changes. I set up an old laptop to boot straight into fullscreen pico8 so they can just open the machine and get moving. Just like my overly romanticized memories of myself at the same age.
- 7y ago

OscarTheGrinch 7y ago

Anyone know why Scratch lite is so limited on the iOS? My 2 year old has nearly mastered all the features but I'm hesitant to let him loose on a laptop.

CDSlice 7y ago
With Scratch 3.0 you can run the full web based Scratch on any iOS device, although I doubt it would be a good experience on anything other than an iPad.

ArtWomb 7y ago

>>> with this individualization I was flabbergasted a few times Don't be! Kids are digital natives. And given programming tools designed specifically for K-12 they will produce useful programs. Operational applications beyond mere Roblox zombie shooters to manage their increasingly complex young lives ;) I was working with AWS last summer with the goal of creating a cloud based IDE for ChromeOS. And I feel the current barrier is programming languages and paradigms as they exist today. Visual logic languages and blocks programming, dating back to Turtle Graphics and the original Logo designs from 1967 by Wally Feurzeig, Seymour Papert, and Cynthia Solomon have been used for generations. But I could see the next evolution as being voice based. In the era of Siri and Alexa, perhaps kids should be composing blocks as parameterized tasks spoken in natural human langauge. This is a big undertaking and more than I can handle at the moment, but I have been experimenting with a Google Nest Mini, and even simple trivia games or joke applications can amuse kids for hours. "Hey Google, what's the weather like on Mars today" opens a portal to infinite curiosity and exploration about the cosmos we live in. The other era of promise I've seen is the engagement around simple physics games and simulations. Think of the level design mode in 2D collision games like "Crush the Castle" or "Angry Birds". With the amount of available energy kids have they are able to build epic structures and take delight in watching them fracture unpredictably. Bottom line is these games and interfaces have to get much better. And that requires targeted investment as well as vision

pdm55 7y ago

It's obvious from your comments that you are going about educating your kids in the right way - a fun & interesting way that lets them explore. And the interaction with you is probably what they like best about what you are doing. For others looking for text-based programming for kids, there is SmallBasic https://smallbasic-publicwebsite.azurewebsites.net/ https://smallbasic-publicwebsite.azurewebsites.net/ And another blocky course is https://studio.code.org/s/express-2019 https://studio.code.org/s/express-2019 (You can even toggle to show javascript.)

tmaly 7y ago

I had a very similar experience last month teaching elementary kids Scratch. I did a group activity building a few games. Then I challenged kids to create there own versions. Some of the older elementary kids really did a great job making their own games. They want me to come back in to teach more. I have been working on an online course for kids on the side since Summer. They definitely enjoy the creativity aspects.