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> “We could never pin down Google on what their true business model was,” says a Cerner executive involved in the discussions. Imagine being that insecure in w

by Narkov 7y ago

> “We could never pin down Google on what their true business model was,” says a Cerner executive involved in the discussions. Imagine being that insecure in what you do. What were they looking for? A non-compete from Google? Innovate or die.

ska 7y ago
I don't think that is fair. Understanding your partners business model is a key part of dd for collaboration. If the partner is being cagey about it, there is probably a reason, and it probably isn't a good sign.
JumpCrisscross 7y ago
> What were they looking for? A non-compete from Google? Good faith. Google has for years selected for raw bureaucratic ambition and a cloistered view of technical talent. That set of cultural defects is coming home to roost.
manigandham 7y ago
> "Innovate or die" You can say the same to Google Cloud.
briffle 7y ago
Especially when Amazon is making moves into insurance and pharmacy spaces
- deanCommie 7y ago
  The difference is Amazon won't use confidential AWS data to drive their other verticals. Google's very business model is selling their users to their customers.
  - theevilsharpie 7y ago
    Can you provide a source, either in the form of a ToS/privacy policy or an evidence-backed article, showing that Google uses customer data stored in GCP for advertising purposes?
    - dontblink 7y ago
      They can't. It's FUD and patently false.
  - daave 7y ago
    Google states unequivocally in its Cloud privacy documentation: 3. Know that customer data is not used for advertising. You own your data. Google Cloud does not process your data for advertising purposes. https://cloud.google.com/security/privacy/ https://cloud.google.com/security/privacy/
    - meddlepal 7y ago
      But they may process it for non-advertising purposes? That feels... flimsy
      - daave 7y ago
        That page links to https://cloud.google.com/terms/data-processing-terms https://cloud.google.com/terms/data-processing-terms, which has a lot more detail. I believe usage for ads is highlighted on the non-legalese privacy page because it's a common question/concern, but the terms specify that data can only be processed as requested by the customer (IANAL, but that's my read and understanding as a Googler who works on Cloud infrastructure).
        killjoywashere 7y ago
        I would go further and say you're crazy if you think a Google engineer is going to run code on your data without a requirement in a signed and funded agreement.
  - briandear 7y ago
    With HIPAA business associates agreements, it’s literally illegal for Google to sell or use health data from a Google Cloud integration.
    - TheCoelacanth 7y ago
      Which doesn't mean they definitely won't do it. Businesses do illegal things all the time for competitive advantage. Literally the entire advertising industry, including Google, is flagrantly violating GDPR.
  - manigandham 7y ago
    What do you mean by this? All major corporations use private internal data to drive their products, including competing with their own customers. Amazon's ecommerce business is notorious for this and a reason why other major retailers tell their vendors not to use AWS. This was all just discussed days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22079174 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22079174 That being said, and with 15 years of adtech of experience, I guarantee that there's absolutely no usage of business customers' first party data by Google's adtech system. While companies can use it to match and target their users, they have to do explicitly with lots of restrictions and protocols and it's only become more limited with new privacy regulations.
  - tallanvor 7y ago
    Google doesn't use data stored in GCP for their own purposes any more than Amazon uses data in AWS or Microsoft uses data in Azure. That said, it's completely understandable that companies don't want to help fund competitors. --Walmart knows that they could use AWS without having any real fear of Amazon employees looking at their data to get a competitive advantage, but they chose Azure because Microsoft is not a direct competitor. Likewise, companies providing healthcare software look at what Google is doing in that space and they don't want to fund the competition by using GCP. These are rational decisions that we would expect companies to make. It's actually more surprising that, for example, Netflix still uses AWS given the fact that Amazon is a direct competitor in the streaming business. --GCP or Azure would make more sense here unless Amazon is giving them a really good deal to keep their business.
kbenson 7y ago
Not understanding the incentives of those you tie yourself to is a quick way to endanger any endeavor you attempt. It's not insecurity to paranoia to worry about today's partner being tomorrow's competitor when it's so common. In fact, this is exactly one of the things China has used to jump start many industries. In their fervor to enter the Chinese market, many companies have given over intellectual property in exchange for access (an excahnge only really on the table because the Chinese government could and did constrain that access otherwise), and found that after some time they had local competitors with similar advantages (and possibly government consrtaints again to boot). That a company might recognize that a deal may have long-term consequences that vastly outweigh the short term gains is not something to deride, it's exactly what they should be on the lookout for if they intend to survive and grow.
EpicEng 7y ago
>Innovate or die. Close cousin to "financially support your competitors and die."
ineedasername 7y ago
I don't think it's insecure to want to understand the motivations of those you're in business with. It's not just about competition either. If you don't know why a business partner is bothering to work with you or your industry, you shouldn't be investing significant resources with that partner, they may not plan to stick around. Heck, dealing with large scale Enterprise tech, a 10-year roadmap (in terms of updates & support) is the standard. I don't expect Google to have such roadmaps for things they're piloting, but then I also wouldn't build anything critical, anything that might be strategic and core to my business, on someone else's "pilot" project. Managing a massive business is complex, successfully doing so cannot be reduced to something as simple as "innovate or die".

by Narkov 7y ago

ska 7y ago

I don't think that is fair. Understanding your partners business model is a key part of dd for collaboration. If the partner is being cagey about it, there is probably a reason, and it probably isn't a good sign.

JumpCrisscross 7y ago

> What were they looking for? A non-compete from Google? Good faith. Google has for years selected for raw bureaucratic ambition and a cloistered view of technical talent. That set of cultural defects is coming home to roost.

manigandham 7y ago

> "Innovate or die" You can say the same to Google Cloud.

briffle 7y ago

Especially when Amazon is making moves into insurance and pharmacy spaces

deanCommie 7y ago
The difference is Amazon won't use confidential AWS data to drive their other verticals. Google's very business model is selling their users to their customers.
- theevilsharpie 7y ago
  Can you provide a source, either in the form of a ToS/privacy policy or an evidence-backed article, showing that Google uses customer data stored in GCP for advertising purposes?
  - dontblink 7y ago
    They can't. It's FUD and patently false.
- daave 7y ago
  Google states unequivocally in its Cloud privacy documentation: 3. Know that customer data is not used for advertising. You own your data. Google Cloud does not process your data for advertising purposes. https://cloud.google.com/security/privacy/ https://cloud.google.com/security/privacy/
  - meddlepal 7y ago
    But they may process it for non-advertising purposes? That feels... flimsy
    - daave 7y ago
      That page links to https://cloud.google.com/terms/data-processing-terms https://cloud.google.com/terms/data-processing-terms, which has a lot more detail. I believe usage for ads is highlighted on the non-legalese privacy page because it's a common question/concern, but the terms specify that data can only be processed as requested by the customer (IANAL, but that's my read and understanding as a Googler who works on Cloud infrastructure).
      - killjoywashere 7y ago
        I would go further and say you're crazy if you think a Google engineer is going to run code on your data without a requirement in a signed and funded agreement.
- briandear 7y ago
  With HIPAA business associates agreements, it’s literally illegal for Google to sell or use health data from a Google Cloud integration.
  - TheCoelacanth 7y ago
    Which doesn't mean they definitely won't do it. Businesses do illegal things all the time for competitive advantage. Literally the entire advertising industry, including Google, is flagrantly violating GDPR.
- manigandham 7y ago
  What do you mean by this? All major corporations use private internal data to drive their products, including competing with their own customers. Amazon's ecommerce business is notorious for this and a reason why other major retailers tell their vendors not to use AWS. This was all just discussed days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22079174 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22079174 That being said, and with 15 years of adtech of experience, I guarantee that there's absolutely no usage of business customers' first party data by Google's adtech system. While companies can use it to match and target their users, they have to do explicitly with lots of restrictions and protocols and it's only become more limited with new privacy regulations.
- tallanvor 7y ago
  Google doesn't use data stored in GCP for their own purposes any more than Amazon uses data in AWS or Microsoft uses data in Azure. That said, it's completely understandable that companies don't want to help fund competitors. --Walmart knows that they could use AWS without having any real fear of Amazon employees looking at their data to get a competitive advantage, but they chose Azure because Microsoft is not a direct competitor. Likewise, companies providing healthcare software look at what Google is doing in that space and they don't want to fund the competition by using GCP. These are rational decisions that we would expect companies to make. It's actually more surprising that, for example, Netflix still uses AWS given the fact that Amazon is a direct competitor in the streaming business. --GCP or Azure would make more sense here unless Amazon is giving them a really good deal to keep their business.

kbenson 7y ago

Not understanding the incentives of those you tie yourself to is a quick way to endanger any endeavor you attempt. It's not insecurity to paranoia to worry about today's partner being tomorrow's competitor when it's so common. In fact, this is exactly one of the things China has used to jump start many industries. In their fervor to enter the Chinese market, many companies have given over intellectual property in exchange for access (an excahnge only really on the table because the Chinese government could and did constrain that access otherwise), and found that after some time they had local competitors with similar advantages (and possibly government consrtaints again to boot). That a company might recognize that a deal may have long-term consequences that vastly outweigh the short term gains is not something to deride, it's exactly what they should be on the lookout for if they intend to survive and grow.

EpicEng 7y ago

>Innovate or die. Close cousin to "financially support your competitors and die."

ineedasername 7y ago

I don't think it's insecure to want to understand the motivations of those you're in business with. It's not just about competition either. If you don't know why a business partner is bothering to work with you or your industry, you shouldn't be investing significant resources with that partner, they may not plan to stick around. Heck, dealing with large scale Enterprise tech, a 10-year roadmap (in terms of updates & support) is the standard. I don't expect Google to have such roadmaps for things they're piloting, but then I also wouldn't build anything critical, anything that might be strategic and core to my business, on someone else's "pilot" project. Managing a massive business is complex, successfully doing so cannot be reduced to something as simple as "innovate or die".