4 ms·

A great article! It's particularly cool to see that despite the author's adoration for Beethoven, he still points out some of his musical weaknesses, like count

by smiljo 7y ago

A great article! It's particularly cool to see that despite the author's adoration for Beethoven, he still points out some of his musical weaknesses, like counterpoint (we could also add opera). I would highly recommend "Beethoven: Anguish and Triumph" for anyone with the perseverance: https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Anguish-Triumph-Jan-Swafford-ebook/dp/B00E78IB3E https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Anguish-Triumph-Jan-Swaffor...

richk449 7y ago
Came here to recommend that book. It’s one of the best books I have read in years, and I’m not even that big of a classical music fan. Understanding the influences on him, including the Bavarian Illuminati, makes his music even more impressive.
- smiljo 7y ago
  Yup, it appears he was quite passionate about politics, which formed the crux of most of his conversations apart from music. On a musical note (heh), it's also interesting to learn that he was one of the first people to play and compose for a proper piano. I guess that's what makes his piano works "richer" than those of the older composers (Bach notwithstanding).
  - telesilla 7y ago
    There is a famous anecdote, probably apocryphal, that illustrates well his politics. ".. Goethe and Beethoven, who were together at a spa resort when they unexpectedly met a party of German royalty on the street. Goethe deferentially stood aside and removed his hat, while Beethoven kept his hat firmly on his head and plowed through the royal group, forcing them to make way—which they did, while offering the composer friendly greetings." https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/02/01/design-for-living-books-adam-kirsch https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/02/01/design-for-liv... Beethoven also led the way in piano technology, demanding that manufacturers increase the loudness and range. He would publish music that required more and more range, which would encourage musicians to buy new pianos. As such, Beethoven had very good relations with the manufacturers who often sent him pianos to try out. Jan Swafford's book "Beethoven: Anguish and Triumph" (recommended above) has many more wonderful stories, I can't recommend it highly enough.
rectang 7y ago
It's funny that the author chose the Hammerklavier Sonata to hold aloft, which isn't that popular even though Beethoven considered it among his best works. Reading the score for the fugue for Hammerklavier Sonata and imagining it in your head, the harmonies (especially the weird trills) are not so jarring as they come out when played on a real piano. Similarly, the syncopated harmonic rhythm in the final movement of the last Sonata #32 (opus 111) doesn't throw you off as much when you are reading the score and have the bar lines to reinforce where the measure boundaries fall. I speculate that if Beethoven had been able to hear those pieces played aloud, he would have made adjustments to them. I hear similar glitches in much of late Beethoven, but those two sections from those two sonatas are the ones that stay with me the most.
- grabbalacious 7y ago
  Excellent lecture on the Hammerklavier by Andras Schiff which includes an amusing discussion of tempo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR5f8yAnGik https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR5f8yAnGik
  - ttctciyf 7y ago
    Schiff is also controversial on the "Moonlight"[1] > I don't know any other piece of music that has such a thick layer of false tradition on it like this one. As well as taking issue with the name - deriving from the poet Ludwig Rellstab which has "stuck like glue" - he notes that the manuscript for the slow first movement, adagio sostenuto (slowly and sustained), is marked alla breve[2] meaning "count two in a bar" so that each beat counts for a pair of the famous triplets[3] - effectively doubling the tempo: > If you would play it in this tempo that is usually played [plays a bar at conventional speed] you can have breakfast and lunch and dinner and the poor pianist is still playing this first ... Not content with this disruption of "Moonlight" convention, he relates that the manuscript writes senza sordino, instructing the player to play the whole first movement "without the dampers". Despite the protestations of his colleagues that "you cannot do it on the modern piano": > I beg to differ. Why can't you do it on the modern piano? Have you tried it? They said "No I haven't tried it. But you cannot do it!" > It's an argument just not good enough. Beethoven is a great great enough composer that you have to take him very seriously. [...] He wanted a very special sound, that the harmonies swim together like in a wash and the overtones are strengthening each other. His solution to the "modern piano" problem is simple: just partially raise the dampers by pressing the pedal down "about a third". All this might sound like a recipe for disaster, but his interpretation sounds wonderful! A lot more follows, and I can also recommend his "Moonlight" masterclass[4] as a demonstration of the cogency of his position on the piece. 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fW_Dv_GNQAo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fW_Dv_GNQAo 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alla_breve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alla_breve 3: https://youtu.be/fW_Dv_GNQAo?t=282 https://youtu.be/fW_Dv_GNQAo?t=282 4: https://youtu.be/85KJkpbh_us?t=913 https://youtu.be/85KJkpbh_us?t=913
robdoherty2 7y ago
One of the reasons I got so much enjoyment from this book is that Swafford himself was a composer and described the works in great detail accordingly. The numerous anecdotes about Beethoven's life were fascinating of course too. Does anyone know of similar biographies of other famous composers? Ones that tell stories of the composer's lives as well as give detailed analyses of their works?

by smiljo 7y ago

richk449 7y ago

Came here to recommend that book. It’s one of the best books I have read in years, and I’m not even that big of a classical music fan. Understanding the influences on him, including the Bavarian Illuminati, makes his music even more impressive.

smiljo 7y ago
Yup, it appears he was quite passionate about politics, which formed the crux of most of his conversations apart from music. On a musical note (heh), it's also interesting to learn that he was one of the first people to play and compose for a proper piano. I guess that's what makes his piano works "richer" than those of the older composers (Bach notwithstanding).
- telesilla 7y ago
  There is a famous anecdote, probably apocryphal, that illustrates well his politics. ".. Goethe and Beethoven, who were together at a spa resort when they unexpectedly met a party of German royalty on the street. Goethe deferentially stood aside and removed his hat, while Beethoven kept his hat firmly on his head and plowed through the royal group, forcing them to make way—which they did, while offering the composer friendly greetings." https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/02/01/design-for-living-books-adam-kirsch https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/02/01/design-for-liv... Beethoven also led the way in piano technology, demanding that manufacturers increase the loudness and range. He would publish music that required more and more range, which would encourage musicians to buy new pianos. As such, Beethoven had very good relations with the manufacturers who often sent him pianos to try out. Jan Swafford's book "Beethoven: Anguish and Triumph" (recommended above) has many more wonderful stories, I can't recommend it highly enough.

rectang 7y ago

It's funny that the author chose the Hammerklavier Sonata to hold aloft, which isn't that popular even though Beethoven considered it among his best works. Reading the score for the fugue for Hammerklavier Sonata and imagining it in your head, the harmonies (especially the weird trills) are not so jarring as they come out when played on a real piano. Similarly, the syncopated harmonic rhythm in the final movement of the last Sonata #32 (opus 111) doesn't throw you off as much when you are reading the score and have the bar lines to reinforce where the measure boundaries fall. I speculate that if Beethoven had been able to hear those pieces played aloud, he would have made adjustments to them. I hear similar glitches in much of late Beethoven, but those two sections from those two sonatas are the ones that stay with me the most.

grabbalacious 7y ago
Excellent lecture on the Hammerklavier by Andras Schiff which includes an amusing discussion of tempo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR5f8yAnGik https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR5f8yAnGik
- ttctciyf 7y ago
  Schiff is also controversial on the "Moonlight"[1] > I don't know any other piece of music that has such a thick layer of false tradition on it like this one. As well as taking issue with the name - deriving from the poet Ludwig Rellstab which has "stuck like glue" - he notes that the manuscript for the slow first movement, adagio sostenuto (slowly and sustained), is marked alla breve[2] meaning "count two in a bar" so that each beat counts for a pair of the famous triplets[3] - effectively doubling the tempo: > If you would play it in this tempo that is usually played [plays a bar at conventional speed] you can have breakfast and lunch and dinner and the poor pianist is still playing this first ... Not content with this disruption of "Moonlight" convention, he relates that the manuscript writes senza sordino, instructing the player to play the whole first movement "without the dampers". Despite the protestations of his colleagues that "you cannot do it on the modern piano": > I beg to differ. Why can't you do it on the modern piano? Have you tried it? They said "No I haven't tried it. But you cannot do it!" > It's an argument just not good enough. Beethoven is a great great enough composer that you have to take him very seriously. [...] He wanted a very special sound, that the harmonies swim together like in a wash and the overtones are strengthening each other. His solution to the "modern piano" problem is simple: just partially raise the dampers by pressing the pedal down "about a third". All this might sound like a recipe for disaster, but his interpretation sounds wonderful! A lot more follows, and I can also recommend his "Moonlight" masterclass[4] as a demonstration of the cogency of his position on the piece. 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fW_Dv_GNQAo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fW_Dv_GNQAo 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alla_breve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alla_breve 3: https://youtu.be/fW_Dv_GNQAo?t=282 https://youtu.be/fW_Dv_GNQAo?t=282 4: https://youtu.be/85KJkpbh_us?t=913 https://youtu.be/85KJkpbh_us?t=913

robdoherty2 7y ago

One of the reasons I got so much enjoyment from this book is that Swafford himself was a composer and described the works in great detail accordingly. The numerous anecdotes about Beethoven's life were fascinating of course too. Does anyone know of similar biographies of other famous composers? Ones that tell stories of the composer's lives as well as give detailed analyses of their works?