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This struck me as too tidy, so in the spirit of debate let me offer a little pushback: >We are seeing such things dissolve because we have other options these

This struck me as too tidy, so in the spirit of debate let me offer a little pushback: >We are seeing such things dissolve because we have other options these days. 1) Do we have other options? I think we do, but I don't think the saturation is nearly as high as churchgoing or temple-attending was throughout history. >In the past, people often grudgingly tolerated it because they had no place to go, not because being part of some larger community was some wonderfully fulfilling experience most of the time. 2) Religions grew and spread in every civilization for millenia. Ancestor worship in East Asia. Hinduism in South Asia. Animism among natives everywhere. Christianity in the West. What if religion and religious community grew and took the forms they did, because they met humanity's social and emotional needs? So I would restate the original comment as asking (i) what problems arise when something everyone depended on so long disappears in a relatively short time, and (ii) how can we handle those problems. Importantly, stating these questions isn't suggesting that everyone needs to return to religion (which wouldn't even be possible without un-discovering science).

DoreenMichele 7y ago
It's a comment on a forum, not a PhD thesis. There are other ways to attend gatherings of people now. You and I are attending one of them right this minute: a forum on the internet. For my purposes, talking with people on HN is generally superior to most meatspace options. I have a compromised immune system. No one is going to cough on me on HN. I'm a woman. This is an overwhelmingly male space. No one here can physically assault me the way they could in meatspace. I can talk to people all over the world who have taken an intense and serious interest in a variety of subjects, so I can get rich discussion on a variety of topics. This won't happen in most meatspace environments. In meatspace, it ends up being a great deal more important for people to have a long list of thibgs in common. Smokers tend to congregate together because strict non smokers don't even like being around them. Sexual orientation ends up being a thornier issue, especially in a small community where you are trying to choose a future mate from a small dating pool. Religion presumably spread because it worked well for that time, or at least was the least worst solution. We have other options now for connecting with people. Those options are incredibly important to how the world works currently and people have flocked to them. It's how you can argue the point with me at all.
- coldtea 7y ago
  >I'm a woman. This is an overwhelmingly male space. No one here can physically assault me the way they could in meatspace. And yet women managed to exist in outside society and participate in all kinds of actions in the 60s and 70s for example (including protests, acid tests, trips to India, and all kinds of stuff), under much worse conditions (re: average societal sexism, etc), without all today's drama. It's like how in general violent crime is at an all time low, but people are more scared and panicked about it than in past 20th century decades (when it was 2x-3x as much).
  - DoreenMichele 7y ago
    The many articles I've seen in recent years related to the #MeToo movement and similar suggest to me that women are pretty routinely sexually assaulted for simply attending a rather wide variety of events, including simply having a job. (Keep in mind that doesn't mean raped -- it includes more minor offenses, like being felt up.) I was sexually assaulted as a child. I don't think I have been as an adult. I like keeping it that way. There are things I attend in meat space. I'm not a shut in. I just enjoy the fact that talking with people online about things that interest me simplifies certain elements for me. I might feel differently if I could find better intellectual engagement in meat space than online. If the entire internet were vapid memes, I might be all "Book club here I come!" (or whatever) But I get more of what I really want here with less potential downside. It's a win-win in my book.
    - mirimir 7y ago
      I've come to feel pretty much like that about HN. People are generally courteous, and discussions are often interesting and thought provoking. After leaving academia, I really missed the "intellectual engagement in meat space". Especially after going rural, and working remotely.
      - DoreenMichele 7y ago
        Gentleman farmer types never had it so good. It's the best of both worlds, magnified. Historically, you only found high levels of intellectual engagement in big cities, at big universities. But thinking deeply requires peace and quiet and control over your schedule. Intellectuals have a long history of trying to get away from it all so they could read, meditate, etc. Now, you don't have to choose. You can have both, at will.

DoreenMichele 7y ago

It's a comment on a forum, not a PhD thesis. There are other ways to attend gatherings of people now. You and I are attending one of them right this minute: a forum on the internet. For my purposes, talking with people on HN is generally superior to most meatspace options. I have a compromised immune system. No one is going to cough on me on HN. I'm a woman. This is an overwhelmingly male space. No one here can physically assault me the way they could in meatspace. I can talk to people all over the world who have taken an intense and serious interest in a variety of subjects, so I can get rich discussion on a variety of topics. This won't happen in most meatspace environments. In meatspace, it ends up being a great deal more important for people to have a long list of thibgs in common. Smokers tend to congregate together because strict non smokers don't even like being around them. Sexual orientation ends up being a thornier issue, especially in a small community where you are trying to choose a future mate from a small dating pool. Religion presumably spread because it worked well for that time, or at least was the least worst solution. We have other options now for connecting with people. Those options are incredibly important to how the world works currently and people have flocked to them. It's how you can argue the point with me at all.

coldtea 7y ago
>I'm a woman. This is an overwhelmingly male space. No one here can physically assault me the way they could in meatspace. And yet women managed to exist in outside society and participate in all kinds of actions in the 60s and 70s for example (including protests, acid tests, trips to India, and all kinds of stuff), under much worse conditions (re: average societal sexism, etc), without all today's drama. It's like how in general violent crime is at an all time low, but people are more scared and panicked about it than in past 20th century decades (when it was 2x-3x as much).
- DoreenMichele 7y ago
  The many articles I've seen in recent years related to the #MeToo movement and similar suggest to me that women are pretty routinely sexually assaulted for simply attending a rather wide variety of events, including simply having a job. (Keep in mind that doesn't mean raped -- it includes more minor offenses, like being felt up.) I was sexually assaulted as a child. I don't think I have been as an adult. I like keeping it that way. There are things I attend in meat space. I'm not a shut in. I just enjoy the fact that talking with people online about things that interest me simplifies certain elements for me. I might feel differently if I could find better intellectual engagement in meat space than online. If the entire internet were vapid memes, I might be all "Book club here I come!" (or whatever) But I get more of what I really want here with less potential downside. It's a win-win in my book.
  - mirimir 7y ago
    I've come to feel pretty much like that about HN. People are generally courteous, and discussions are often interesting and thought provoking. After leaving academia, I really missed the "intellectual engagement in meat space". Especially after going rural, and working remotely.
    - DoreenMichele 7y ago
      Gentleman farmer types never had it so good. It's the best of both worlds, magnified. Historically, you only found high levels of intellectual engagement in big cities, at big universities. But thinking deeply requires peace and quiet and control over your schedule. Intellectuals have a long history of trying to get away from it all so they could read, meditate, etc. Now, you don't have to choose. You can have both, at will.