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“ Don't forget that miscarriages effect [sic] the spouse too.” Of course close family [that know about it] will also feel grief; that’s only natural. I think t

by hhas01 7y ago

“ Don't forget that miscarriages effect [sic] the spouse too.” Of course close family [that know about it] will also feel grief; that’s only natural. I think the point being made is that it is far worse for the individual doing the actual miscarrying. On top of the grief there can also be powerful feelings of guilt, anger, personal responsibility; plus they’ve a bloody great biochemical hurricane going down too. (e.g. Compare and contrast the effects of postpartum depression following a successful pregnancy.)

whiddershins 7y ago
It’s not a worse for whom competition.
- hhas01 7y ago
  Oh, please. Miscarrying is worse for the person miscarrying. I’m male, single, childless, dumb as a stump, and even I can work that one out. It’s not just emotional; it’s biochemical too. Look, no-one says grieving spouses don’t require support too (of course they do!), but it’s entirely reasonable to suggest that women who miscarry suffer more severe trauma requiring significantly higher and more specialized professional support. Terms like “PTSD” and “medication“ do not get bandied around for fun, you know. Particularly by a medical profession that has a less-than-perfect history of taking “female problems” seriously. So try starting from the assumption that however bad it may make you feel, the other person feels a whole shit-ton worse, and show some flipping grace as you work your way from there.
  - qmmmur 7y ago
    I think it's fair to say that the death of anyone's baby, in circumstances where they can blame themselves (I didn't do enough to make the baby healthy, I didn't support my wife, I could have done x for her) might have significant mental detriment on a non gestating spouse just as it might the one who gestates. Instead, you've made this about how smart you can seem rather than listening to the other person.
  - taneq 7y ago
    > I’m male, single, childless, dumb as a stump Then you're missing the personal experience to contribute meaningfully to this discussion.
    - hhas01 7y ago
      Why? Do you think that women in my close family have never miscarried? Or that experience is the only contribution that matters? I may have flunked med, but at least I picked up enough to appreciate what a chaotic crapshoot animal biology really is. I also worked lambing seasons growing up, which is enough to disabuse anyone of all romantic notions regarding reproduction. Life is bloody and messy and awful, but it’s Life. So now do you want to know why I initially posted? Because as soon as a discussion about women was brought up, a bunch of men came in and made it about themselves. I may not have kids but at least I have empathy and a working theory of mind, along with occasional manners. Congrats.
  - whiddershins 7y ago
    The comment you replied to merely said don’t forget the spouse. The comparison (to my understanding) is wholly in your comment. I’m not sure why you are comparing. I’m genuinely not sure. Prior to your comment there didn’t seem to be any discussion about for whom it was more traumatic. Maybe I’m missing something? Some implied context or content?
  - friendlybus 7y ago
    It's a basic rule in psychotherapy to not get into who has it worse. GP comment is right. Reason has diminishing returns in emotional matters.
- dragonwriter 7y ago
  The fact that it is not a competition doesn't stop the variation in intensity from being both real and relevant in a discussion about the relation between the event and "long-term post-traumatic stress".
- p1necone 7y ago
  Exactly, which is why pointing out "what about the man" in a thread about research into the mothers suffering is innapropriate.
taneq 7y ago
> I think the point being made is that it is far worse for the individual doing the actual miscarrying. Like all things this depends on the individuals involved, and while it's probably usually worse for the female (the hormonal effects you mention are very real), this is absolutely not a universal truth, especially in the longer term.
mrkurt 7y ago
I don't understand why you're minimizing a partners' feelings in this way. Yes it's absolutely worse for a woman who miscarries. But partners can and do suffer trauma (and, weirdly, post partum), and frequently just bury it -- it's a recipe for ptsd. All suffering is relative, there's no point at which a partner thinks "thank god I'm not the person who miscarried or I'd really feel trauma". It's painful all around.
- p1necone 7y ago
  The person bringing up "but what about the other partner" in a thread about research into the effects on the woman giving birth was minimizing, the person you're commenting on is just calling them out on that. It's true that the partner suffers too but pointing it out in this context is not helpful.
  - mrkurt 7y ago
    Eh, I think it’s probably better to take that comment at face value. What if the person who posted it is suffering through the effects of a miscarriage right now? This isn’t the same as “all lives matter”

by hhas01 7y ago

whiddershins 7y ago

It’s not a worse for whom competition.

hhas01 7y ago
Oh, please. Miscarrying is worse for the person miscarrying. I’m male, single, childless, dumb as a stump, and even I can work that one out. It’s not just emotional; it’s biochemical too. Look, no-one says grieving spouses don’t require support too (of course they do!), but it’s entirely reasonable to suggest that women who miscarry suffer more severe trauma requiring significantly higher and more specialized professional support. Terms like “PTSD” and “medication“ do not get bandied around for fun, you know. Particularly by a medical profession that has a less-than-perfect history of taking “female problems” seriously. So try starting from the assumption that however bad it may make you feel, the other person feels a whole shit-ton worse, and show some flipping grace as you work your way from there.
- qmmmur 7y ago
  I think it's fair to say that the death of anyone's baby, in circumstances where they can blame themselves (I didn't do enough to make the baby healthy, I didn't support my wife, I could have done x for her) might have significant mental detriment on a non gestating spouse just as it might the one who gestates. Instead, you've made this about how smart you can seem rather than listening to the other person.
- taneq 7y ago
  > I’m male, single, childless, dumb as a stump Then you're missing the personal experience to contribute meaningfully to this discussion.
  - hhas01 7y ago
    Why? Do you think that women in my close family have never miscarried? Or that experience is the only contribution that matters? I may have flunked med, but at least I picked up enough to appreciate what a chaotic crapshoot animal biology really is. I also worked lambing seasons growing up, which is enough to disabuse anyone of all romantic notions regarding reproduction. Life is bloody and messy and awful, but it’s Life. So now do you want to know why I initially posted? Because as soon as a discussion about women was brought up, a bunch of men came in and made it about themselves. I may not have kids but at least I have empathy and a working theory of mind, along with occasional manners. Congrats.
- whiddershins 7y ago
  The comment you replied to merely said don’t forget the spouse. The comparison (to my understanding) is wholly in your comment. I’m not sure why you are comparing. I’m genuinely not sure. Prior to your comment there didn’t seem to be any discussion about for whom it was more traumatic. Maybe I’m missing something? Some implied context or content?
- friendlybus 7y ago
  It's a basic rule in psychotherapy to not get into who has it worse. GP comment is right. Reason has diminishing returns in emotional matters.
dragonwriter 7y ago
The fact that it is not a competition doesn't stop the variation in intensity from being both real and relevant in a discussion about the relation between the event and "long-term post-traumatic stress".
p1necone 7y ago
Exactly, which is why pointing out "what about the man" in a thread about research into the mothers suffering is innapropriate.

taneq 7y ago

> I think the point being made is that it is far worse for the individual doing the actual miscarrying. Like all things this depends on the individuals involved, and while it's probably usually worse for the female (the hormonal effects you mention are very real), this is absolutely not a universal truth, especially in the longer term.

mrkurt 7y ago

I don't understand why you're minimizing a partners' feelings in this way. Yes it's absolutely worse for a woman who miscarries. But partners can and do suffer trauma (and, weirdly, post partum), and frequently just bury it -- it's a recipe for ptsd. All suffering is relative, there's no point at which a partner thinks "thank god I'm not the person who miscarried or I'd really feel trauma". It's painful all around.

p1necone 7y ago
The person bringing up "but what about the other partner" in a thread about research into the effects on the woman giving birth was minimizing, the person you're commenting on is just calling them out on that. It's true that the partner suffers too but pointing it out in this context is not helpful.
- mrkurt 7y ago
  Eh, I think it’s probably better to take that comment at face value. What if the person who posted it is suffering through the effects of a miscarriage right now? This isn’t the same as “all lives matter”