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The only place I know which has more racism than the Eastern EU and which is also more divided is Britain. You mean the country that: 1. Is the most racially

The only place I know which has more racism than the Eastern EU and which is also more divided is Britain. You mean the country that: 1. Is the most racially diverse country in Europe 2. And which just elected a government with a historically huge mandate, partly because the opposing party was plagued by accusations of anti-semitism? That divided and racist country? Most people haven't lived in eastern Europe and would accept your views by default, indeed, I've never lived there either (have visited many times though). But if you really believe the UK of all places is the most racist and divided place you know then you can't really know Europe at all, or indeed what racism truly is, because that's the exact opposite of how it really is. Perhaps you are getting your views exclusively from German newspapers?

DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
> Perhaps you are getting your views exclusively from German newspapers? yes it must be all those German newspapers I read while I was living in the UK. /s I don't make armchair philosophy statements! my experience comes from living abroad since the age of 16 and never having stopped (e.g. never live in the same place for more than 5 years). So you can insinuate whatever, I _know_ what I experienced. Seriously the number of times British expats in Germany asked me "how I feel about the war", one guy even said once "aren't you ashamed of your grandfathers sins". He assumed I was German which isn't the case. This was the kind of Brits who have an open worldview. The type that actually leaves the UK to work abroad ... None of them bothered to learn the lingo and preferred to hang out with other English speakers rather than mix with locals. Not to mention the number of times they thought I was British and thought it was OK to make degrading jokes about foreigners. My mother lives in Spain. And I used to live in the South of France. Both places have a large British expat community. Not once have I seen the Brits integrating into the local culture. Instead they mix exclusively among themselves like some Raj ruling class. Rarely ever hanging out with the locals, despite themselves getting invited by locals, ... or while other foreigners would try to mingle with everyone else, Brits rather stay among themselves. They can't be arsed to learn another language either. I may sound like I hate Brits. Actually it is the most fascinating and funny people I know. But oh my god - it is an awful lot of work to make friends with them if you aren't native English speaker yourself. The only other people I know who keep treating you like an outsider even if you've been among their midst for years are the Japanese. I know not because "armchair philosophy" but because I'm married to one since >20 years! AMA
- thu2111 7y ago
  Come on, you started by talking about the country being the most "racist and divided" in Europe, now you're admitting you've not lived there a long time and are talking about expats asking dumb questions. That's not the same thing at all. Immigrants often group together, wherever they come from. Big Russian community where I live. The UK of course has entire areas where the immigrant population doesn't speak English, or where many of the shops are Polish (and use the Polish language). New York famous for certain areas being dominated by certain nationalities at various points (e.g. Italians). It sounds like you think this is uniquely British, but it's not. By the way, I'm a British immigrant living abroad. All but two of my friends are not British. Their friends are also mostly not British. I've got qualifications in German and my girlfriend is German. You're painting with an extremely broad brush here. I think you just don't really notice the Brits that blend in, or other nationalities that don't. As for language, native English speakers of all origins find it hard to learn local languages because nearly everyone learns English as a child and are routinely exposed to English language culture. Native speakers learn, at most, one or two other languages that may not be used at all in the place they end up, and they're rarely exposed to other languages anyway. Naturally that means whoever they talk to is better at English than the other way around, and few people want to struggle through a miniature language class when they have other things to do. Yes, most British immigrants should try harder to learn the language. But it's wrong to claim that's just laziness. When I was first learning lots of the local people here gave a strong impression they didn't actually care or worse, just found it annoying.
gnomewascool 7y ago
> 1. Is the most racially diverse country in Europe I haven't been able to find any reliable statistics about this, and it probably depends on how you define "race". > 2. And which just elected a government with a historically huge mandate, partly because the opposing party was plagued by accusations of anti-semitism? This is just bizarre. It would be far more justifiable to argue that some people voted for the government partly because they wanted to end Freedom of Movement, to reduce immigration into the UK. Discussing why these people wanted reduced immigration is more complicated, though since there's no real economic grounds for it, the main possibilities are misinformation (fuelled by certain media, because it sells well), scapegoating and xenophobia. Also, what about the 32 % of people who voted for Labour despite it supposedly being "plagued by accusations of anti-semitism"? In any case, since elections are never about one issue, drawing these sorts of conclusions is dangerous.
- thu2111 7y ago
  I thought we were moving beyond "immigration quotas are racism"? Eastern Europe is almost entirely white so reducing immigration from there couldn't be racist to start with. But didn't the results from the last election show what a completely dead-end attitude that is? Labour constantly gave the impression they thought immigration controls were immoral or racist and had their worst defeat in a long time. People in the UK overwhelmingly want to reduce immigration, something like 80%+ want that so it's a massively bipartisan issue, not because the entire country is seething with racism (where's the evidence for this extreme claim?) but because the existing policy recognises no limits on infrastructure build outs. It just assumes that infrastructure to support a person magically appears the moment someone chooses to move, which isn't true and obviously isn't true. That means it's a very naive policy that results in constant shortages and overloads. And that's before you get into the economic and pace-of-change issues. The only people who believe that allowing an unlimited supply of low wage labour into a country has no effect on local wages are academic economists. Clearly lots of people believe otherwise. But sure, whatever, by all means, believe a place immigrants choose to move in huge numbers is filled with hatred and racism against them. Believe that the entire thing is just misinformation. Believe what you want. It doesn't matter much anymore: those views lost.

DyslexicAtheist 7y ago

> Perhaps you are getting your views exclusively from German newspapers? yes it must be all those German newspapers I read while I was living in the UK. /s I don't make armchair philosophy statements! my experience comes from living abroad since the age of 16 and never having stopped (e.g. never live in the same place for more than 5 years). So you can insinuate whatever, I _know_ what I experienced. Seriously the number of times British expats in Germany asked me "how I feel about the war", one guy even said once "aren't you ashamed of your grandfathers sins". He assumed I was German which isn't the case. This was the kind of Brits who have an open worldview. The type that actually leaves the UK to work abroad ... None of them bothered to learn the lingo and preferred to hang out with other English speakers rather than mix with locals. Not to mention the number of times they thought I was British and thought it was OK to make degrading jokes about foreigners. My mother lives in Spain. And I used to live in the South of France. Both places have a large British expat community. Not once have I seen the Brits integrating into the local culture. Instead they mix exclusively among themselves like some Raj ruling class. Rarely ever hanging out with the locals, despite themselves getting invited by locals, ... or while other foreigners would try to mingle with everyone else, Brits rather stay among themselves. They can't be arsed to learn another language either. I may sound like I hate Brits. Actually it is the most fascinating and funny people I know. But oh my god - it is an awful lot of work to make friends with them if you aren't native English speaker yourself. The only other people I know who keep treating you like an outsider even if you've been among their midst for years are the Japanese. I know not because "armchair philosophy" but because I'm married to one since >20 years! AMA

thu2111 7y ago
Come on, you started by talking about the country being the most "racist and divided" in Europe, now you're admitting you've not lived there a long time and are talking about expats asking dumb questions. That's not the same thing at all. Immigrants often group together, wherever they come from. Big Russian community where I live. The UK of course has entire areas where the immigrant population doesn't speak English, or where many of the shops are Polish (and use the Polish language). New York famous for certain areas being dominated by certain nationalities at various points (e.g. Italians). It sounds like you think this is uniquely British, but it's not. By the way, I'm a British immigrant living abroad. All but two of my friends are not British. Their friends are also mostly not British. I've got qualifications in German and my girlfriend is German. You're painting with an extremely broad brush here. I think you just don't really notice the Brits that blend in, or other nationalities that don't. As for language, native English speakers of all origins find it hard to learn local languages because nearly everyone learns English as a child and are routinely exposed to English language culture. Native speakers learn, at most, one or two other languages that may not be used at all in the place they end up, and they're rarely exposed to other languages anyway. Naturally that means whoever they talk to is better at English than the other way around, and few people want to struggle through a miniature language class when they have other things to do. Yes, most British immigrants should try harder to learn the language. But it's wrong to claim that's just laziness. When I was first learning lots of the local people here gave a strong impression they didn't actually care or worse, just found it annoying.

gnomewascool 7y ago

> 1. Is the most racially diverse country in Europe I haven't been able to find any reliable statistics about this, and it probably depends on how you define "race". > 2. And which just elected a government with a historically huge mandate, partly because the opposing party was plagued by accusations of anti-semitism? This is just bizarre. It would be far more justifiable to argue that some people voted for the government partly because they wanted to end Freedom of Movement, to reduce immigration into the UK. Discussing why these people wanted reduced immigration is more complicated, though since there's no real economic grounds for it, the main possibilities are misinformation (fuelled by certain media, because it sells well), scapegoating and xenophobia. Also, what about the 32 % of people who voted for Labour despite it supposedly being "plagued by accusations of anti-semitism"? In any case, since elections are never about one issue, drawing these sorts of conclusions is dangerous.

thu2111 7y ago
I thought we were moving beyond "immigration quotas are racism"? Eastern Europe is almost entirely white so reducing immigration from there couldn't be racist to start with. But didn't the results from the last election show what a completely dead-end attitude that is? Labour constantly gave the impression they thought immigration controls were immoral or racist and had their worst defeat in a long time. People in the UK overwhelmingly want to reduce immigration, something like 80%+ want that so it's a massively bipartisan issue, not because the entire country is seething with racism (where's the evidence for this extreme claim?) but because the existing policy recognises no limits on infrastructure build outs. It just assumes that infrastructure to support a person magically appears the moment someone chooses to move, which isn't true and obviously isn't true. That means it's a very naive policy that results in constant shortages and overloads. And that's before you get into the economic and pace-of-change issues. The only people who believe that allowing an unlimited supply of low wage labour into a country has no effect on local wages are academic economists. Clearly lots of people believe otherwise. But sure, whatever, by all means, believe a place immigrants choose to move in huge numbers is filled with hatred and racism against them. Believe that the entire thing is just misinformation. Believe what you want. It doesn't matter much anymore: those views lost.