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Unlike a lawyer (say top 25%) at a good law firm pushing 15 years of experience, I'm was already salary capped at about 35 years old, and can count on barely in

Unlike a lawyer (say top 25%) at a good law firm pushing 15 years of experience, I'm was already salary capped at about 35 years old, and can count on barely inflation-level raises for the rest of my career unless I move to management or start my own business. At 40, a good lawyer is making partner and starting to enjoy a share of his or her firm's profits. I'm still sitting in an open office working on Jira tasks without any idea of how my company is doing because engineers are completely isolated from the financial books, even at smaller firms. I am learning yet another JS framework, and not able to network or learn anything related to the business. I'm glorified 'IT'. The lawyer is wearing $1500 suits, flying business class to meet with clients and other attorneys, has an office and an expense account. I'm relegated to JIRA monkey tasks, and on another death march on Friday evening fixing bugs and eating "free pizza and snacks" our scrum master bought us for working another weekend. At 45, the lawyer is now making more and more money, and respected more as he's now an experienced attorney, and can assume he will probably continue his upward path for the next 15 years At 45, I just got replaced by some 25 year olds on H1Bs, and after doing well on several interviews but receiving no callbacks after the in-person, am researching Just For Men™ to get rid of the gray in my hair. I'll find it harder and harder to find jobs as I'm told I'm "not a great fit" for most teams, and will spend increasingly longer time periods completely unemployed, burning through savings. The jobs I do eventually get, will pay less than I earned at age 30. At 60, the lawyer, now full partner, owns a large chunk of his firm in equity, and can work what he wants. He's made enough to take it easy, or can put in more hours and keep pushing up his salary. I've pretty much given up as half the corporate jobs in my city were offshored or using H1Bs, and the rest are only hiring cheaper 20 somethings as there is now not much demand since the bubble just popped (again) like it did when I was 30, 40 ,and 50. At this point, I just pray I can make it to 65 and Medicare before getting really sick, and that my 401K will last me until I can take early social security at 63.

joshuamorton 7y ago
I think you're underestimating how difficult it is to make partner at a good firm. After ~10 years, between 5 and 10% of associates will make partner. You're comparing approximately the best possible outcome for a lawyer (makes partner at a high paying firm) with a mediocre-bad outcome for an engineer.
bshimmin 7y ago
This is an incredibly glamorised version of what a lawyer's life looks like (I say this as someone whose father was a lawyer for 49 years). You're describing, by the sounds of it, a partner at a Magic Circle law firm, and you've missed out all the negatives; most lawyers' working lives are nothing like you've described, and the ones who do manage to make it to the upper echelons of the profession still have to deal with colossal stress and pressure, the kind which I doubt an expensive suit and an expense account will really do much to alleviate.
NhanH 7y ago
At any given moment, there are at most around 500k H1B visa holders in the US, for all industries and companies. There are 90 millions working American, may be a third (half?) in white collar jobs that would employ H1b. There just straight up aren't enough H1bs to affect the job market. I don't live in the US, for the usual disclaimer.
- chrshawkes 7y ago
  I think those numbers are bogus based on my personal experience. I do live in the USA and work in tech the past 10 years.
  - joshuamorton 7y ago
    Those are the official numbers. In fact in 2018 it was 419637. There are other visas (GC, as an example), but H1B are more of a Boogeyman than they deserve.
    - hiram112 7y ago
      > but H1B are more of a Boogeyman than they deserve. Where do you work? In some cities, even smaller ones, in which I've worked, nearly every single IT / software office was filled with more and more foreign workers each year, not even including the 'team members' working offshore. Going for lunch at various cafeterias in a big building or food court near tech offices, and you'd think you were in India. A little Googling tells me that there only about 130M workers actually employed in the US currently. I see a few different statistics for software engineers, but it appears to be anywhere from 1/2% of all of them to harder numbers of 1.5 million. Let's double that to include other similar fields like DB admins, developers, etc. So at a high end, maybe 3 million developers, software engineers, etc. According to 'official' statistics, there are 1/2 million working on H1B currently. I'm guessing there aren't too many models and CEOs on H1B, so most are, in fact, in tech. Now add in the L1 visa abusers (supposed to be short term but now used as a loophole) and Opt1 and probably a few more we don't even know are being abused, and don't forget the not insignificant percentage who are on expired visas but still working for body shops run by Indians... Let's guesstimate it's 1 million foreign workers, all concentrated in IT. So 1 Million workers in an industry of 3 million, and you think that's a 'Boogeyman'? That's a massive economic force that would knock down wages and working conditions for anyone in the industry, while giving huge leverage to employers. And outside of the Silicon Valley FAANG bubbles where we're making $100K as senior engineers, that's what we have been experiencing, a bit worse each year, for two decades now.
leonroy 7y ago
I deal with a fair few lawyers here (in the UK) and most of them are in their 40s and 50s - freelancing between multiple firms or their own small one man firm and billing £100-200 per hour. Their businesses make money from their billable hours - if they're sick - tough luck. Most of the bills I get are in the region of ~£500 and for that I get a 5-10 page legal document or in depth review of some semi-complex legal matter which took them a day and then some several hours back and forth of revisions - all included in that price. Visiting their offices is far from glamorous - most are literally piled high with document boxes (a dozen easily) and their desks the same. None of them wear Rolexes or fancy suits. I certainly don't get the impression that they're making bank - just that they're doing okay, same as your average software engineer or white collar job. The office juniors in these small legal firms do commensurately less well than that... Now there are big city firms which doubtless do very well and where partners do better than your average lawyer - but then outliers like that are the same in any industry.
eldavido 7y ago
I think the portrayal of the lawyer's lifestyle is a little exaggerated, but I agree with the larger point. Pay and work conditions are determined by social status as much as anything else and in the US, at least a lot of it (perhaps not the Bay Area), lawyer is a higher-status job than most. I'm 35 and I can already feel this happening. There just isn't much of a career path if you don't go into management or own a business. Maybe at the huge companies (Apple, FB, etc), but not most, and definitely not in most geographies. What I don't understand is why it's different in tech vs. other fields. Maybe because they're professionalized and can't be cut out? Whereas tech is more capitalistic overall and reinvents itself every 5-10 years in a way most other professions couldn't imagine? Not sure. "Free pizza and snacks" does feel pretty infantilizing. Heading into my late 30s, I'm not game for that anymore. It's not even just the money, it's the overall approach to work, the open-plan offices, having little autonomy, little networking or visibility into the business, routinely having my judgment overruled by the latest VC-backed 22-year-old, dealing with stupid and avoidable tech debt, death marches, and cleaning up others' messes. After three failed startups, it's gotten tiresome to the point that I've decided not to work in those companies anymore, and really given a hard think to my personal career plans. Even as the executives of these bankrupt businesses have all failed upward into senior director roles at larger companies and sama and co. continue to preach the gospel of fast wealth and career growth at the latest darling run by "geniuses" 3 months out of YC.
- hiram112 7y ago
  Yes I exaggerated the lawyers' career paths, but I did say we're talking about the top 25% of developers. Let's not forget the bottom 50%, and others who aren't even counted because they got out immediately after a year or two. And from what I've seen, even in smaller cities, decent lawyers who 'make it' by mid 30s usually find a niche, and start gaining more respect, book of clients, and just generally are immune to the ageism and short careers in tech. And exactly like you said, it isn't even about the money so much anymore as I do okay. It's that we're completely isolated from anything related to business, and that really screws us as we don't get any insight in what the numbers really are (or how much I'm billing my own customers as a consultant), how to increase sales or contracts, strategy, networking, etc. At 40 years old, if development jobs dried up, I'd have no clue how to go out on my own because all I know is 10 different MVC and JS frameworks. At I'm really getting worried because I do see that there are so few engineers over the age of 50. Where do they all go, since I know many can't or won't get into management?

joshuamorton 7y ago

I think you're underestimating how difficult it is to make partner at a good firm. After ~10 years, between 5 and 10% of associates will make partner. You're comparing approximately the best possible outcome for a lawyer (makes partner at a high paying firm) with a mediocre-bad outcome for an engineer.

bshimmin 7y ago

This is an incredibly glamorised version of what a lawyer's life looks like (I say this as someone whose father was a lawyer for 49 years). You're describing, by the sounds of it, a partner at a Magic Circle law firm, and you've missed out all the negatives; most lawyers' working lives are nothing like you've described, and the ones who do manage to make it to the upper echelons of the profession still have to deal with colossal stress and pressure, the kind which I doubt an expensive suit and an expense account will really do much to alleviate.

NhanH 7y ago

At any given moment, there are at most around 500k H1B visa holders in the US, for all industries and companies. There are 90 millions working American, may be a third (half?) in white collar jobs that would employ H1b. There just straight up aren't enough H1bs to affect the job market. I don't live in the US, for the usual disclaimer.

chrshawkes 7y ago
I think those numbers are bogus based on my personal experience. I do live in the USA and work in tech the past 10 years.
- joshuamorton 7y ago
  Those are the official numbers. In fact in 2018 it was 419637. There are other visas (GC, as an example), but H1B are more of a Boogeyman than they deserve.
  - hiram112 7y ago
    > but H1B are more of a Boogeyman than they deserve. Where do you work? In some cities, even smaller ones, in which I've worked, nearly every single IT / software office was filled with more and more foreign workers each year, not even including the 'team members' working offshore. Going for lunch at various cafeterias in a big building or food court near tech offices, and you'd think you were in India. A little Googling tells me that there only about 130M workers actually employed in the US currently. I see a few different statistics for software engineers, but it appears to be anywhere from 1/2% of all of them to harder numbers of 1.5 million. Let's double that to include other similar fields like DB admins, developers, etc. So at a high end, maybe 3 million developers, software engineers, etc. According to 'official' statistics, there are 1/2 million working on H1B currently. I'm guessing there aren't too many models and CEOs on H1B, so most are, in fact, in tech. Now add in the L1 visa abusers (supposed to be short term but now used as a loophole) and Opt1 and probably a few more we don't even know are being abused, and don't forget the not insignificant percentage who are on expired visas but still working for body shops run by Indians... Let's guesstimate it's 1 million foreign workers, all concentrated in IT. So 1 Million workers in an industry of 3 million, and you think that's a 'Boogeyman'? That's a massive economic force that would knock down wages and working conditions for anyone in the industry, while giving huge leverage to employers. And outside of the Silicon Valley FAANG bubbles where we're making $100K as senior engineers, that's what we have been experiencing, a bit worse each year, for two decades now.

leonroy 7y ago

I deal with a fair few lawyers here (in the UK) and most of them are in their 40s and 50s - freelancing between multiple firms or their own small one man firm and billing £100-200 per hour. Their businesses make money from their billable hours - if they're sick - tough luck. Most of the bills I get are in the region of ~£500 and for that I get a 5-10 page legal document or in depth review of some semi-complex legal matter which took them a day and then some several hours back and forth of revisions - all included in that price. Visiting their offices is far from glamorous - most are literally piled high with document boxes (a dozen easily) and their desks the same. None of them wear Rolexes or fancy suits. I certainly don't get the impression that they're making bank - just that they're doing okay, same as your average software engineer or white collar job. The office juniors in these small legal firms do commensurately less well than that... Now there are big city firms which doubtless do very well and where partners do better than your average lawyer - but then outliers like that are the same in any industry.

eldavido 7y ago

I think the portrayal of the lawyer's lifestyle is a little exaggerated, but I agree with the larger point. Pay and work conditions are determined by social status as much as anything else and in the US, at least a lot of it (perhaps not the Bay Area), lawyer is a higher-status job than most. I'm 35 and I can already feel this happening. There just isn't much of a career path if you don't go into management or own a business. Maybe at the huge companies (Apple, FB, etc), but not most, and definitely not in most geographies. What I don't understand is why it's different in tech vs. other fields. Maybe because they're professionalized and can't be cut out? Whereas tech is more capitalistic overall and reinvents itself every 5-10 years in a way most other professions couldn't imagine? Not sure. "Free pizza and snacks" does feel pretty infantilizing. Heading into my late 30s, I'm not game for that anymore. It's not even just the money, it's the overall approach to work, the open-plan offices, having little autonomy, little networking or visibility into the business, routinely having my judgment overruled by the latest VC-backed 22-year-old, dealing with stupid and avoidable tech debt, death marches, and cleaning up others' messes. After three failed startups, it's gotten tiresome to the point that I've decided not to work in those companies anymore, and really given a hard think to my personal career plans. Even as the executives of these bankrupt businesses have all failed upward into senior director roles at larger companies and sama and co. continue to preach the gospel of fast wealth and career growth at the latest darling run by "geniuses" 3 months out of YC.

hiram112 7y ago
Yes I exaggerated the lawyers' career paths, but I did say we're talking about the top 25% of developers. Let's not forget the bottom 50%, and others who aren't even counted because they got out immediately after a year or two. And from what I've seen, even in smaller cities, decent lawyers who 'make it' by mid 30s usually find a niche, and start gaining more respect, book of clients, and just generally are immune to the ageism and short careers in tech. And exactly like you said, it isn't even about the money so much anymore as I do okay. It's that we're completely isolated from anything related to business, and that really screws us as we don't get any insight in what the numbers really are (or how much I'm billing my own customers as a consultant), how to increase sales or contracts, strategy, networking, etc. At 40 years old, if development jobs dried up, I'd have no clue how to go out on my own because all I know is 10 different MVC and JS frameworks. At I'm really getting worried because I do see that there are so few engineers over the age of 50. Where do they all go, since I know many can't or won't get into management?