4 ms·

> it's not hard to imagine a future where software devs are compensated as least as well as, if not better than, attorneys. That future is already here. Starti

> it's not hard to imagine a future where software devs are compensated as least as well as, if not better than, attorneys. That future is already here. Starting salaries for attorneys at top-tier firms are higher than starting salaries for engineers at top tier tech companies, but not by much, around 10%. Once you factor in the 3 extra years it takes to get a law degree and tuition costs, it's fair to say that attorneys are paid less than engineers. While attorney compensation at top firms grows pretty quickly every year (5 years out of school, you can hit 300k with bonus), very few attorneys last this long (average attrition is 3 years), and again, this is only the very top tier. Also, generally attorneys work far longer hours than engineers and have a much more stressful work environment.

eldavido 7y ago
https://blog.shortbar.com/the-end-of-the-country-developer-7b9a184d4cf1 https://blog.shortbar.com/the-end-of-the-country-developer-7... I wrote that about two years ago. There are many parallels between how attorneys and software people work which I think you recognize. One I've brought up several times already in this discussion is that where one chooses to work -- not just how well one interviews, how hard one negotiates, etc., has a big bearing on pay. And there are many reasons why someone might choose to work in a non-FAANG (parallel: BigLaw) setting. Maybe they want to live somewhere else, they enjoy a more specialized boutique area of work, they want more lifestyle flexibility, etc. Larger point, us devs could learn a lot looking at how attorneys or other professions think through these tradeoffs. Funny, I was talking to my wife earlier tonight about what we should aspire to. Is making as much money as possible really the goal? How much income is it worth to have a short commute and less stress? With a kid on the way in 2-3 months, I find my thoughts coming to this stuff rather often.
hiram112 7y ago
Unlike a lawyer (say top 25%) at a good law firm pushing 15 years of experience, I'm was already salary capped at about 35 years old, and can count on barely inflation-level raises for the rest of my career unless I move to management or start my own business. At 40, a good lawyer is making partner and starting to enjoy a share of his or her firm's profits. I'm still sitting in an open office working on Jira tasks without any idea of how my company is doing because engineers are completely isolated from the financial books, even at smaller firms. I am learning yet another JS framework, and not able to network or learn anything related to the business. I'm glorified 'IT'. The lawyer is wearing $1500 suits, flying business class to meet with clients and other attorneys, has an office and an expense account. I'm relegated to JIRA monkey tasks, and on another death march on Friday evening fixing bugs and eating "free pizza and snacks" our scrum master bought us for working another weekend. At 45, the lawyer is now making more and more money, and respected more as he's now an experienced attorney, and can assume he will probably continue his upward path for the next 15 years At 45, I just got replaced by some 25 year olds on H1Bs, and after doing well on several interviews but receiving no callbacks after the in-person, am researching Just For Men™ to get rid of the gray in my hair. I'll find it harder and harder to find jobs as I'm told I'm "not a great fit" for most teams, and will spend increasingly longer time periods completely unemployed, burning through savings. The jobs I do eventually get, will pay less than I earned at age 30. At 60, the lawyer, now full partner, owns a large chunk of his firm in equity, and can work what he wants. He's made enough to take it easy, or can put in more hours and keep pushing up his salary. I've pretty much given up as half the corporate jobs in my city were offshored or using H1Bs, and the rest are only hiring cheaper 20 somethings as there is now not much demand since the bubble just popped (again) like it did when I was 30, 40 ,and 50. At this point, I just pray I can make it to 65 and Medicare before getting really sick, and that my 401K will last me until I can take early social security at 63.
- joshuamorton 7y ago
  I think you're underestimating how difficult it is to make partner at a good firm. After ~10 years, between 5 and 10% of associates will make partner. You're comparing approximately the best possible outcome for a lawyer (makes partner at a high paying firm) with a mediocre-bad outcome for an engineer.
- bshimmin 7y ago
  This is an incredibly glamorised version of what a lawyer's life looks like (I say this as someone whose father was a lawyer for 49 years). You're describing, by the sounds of it, a partner at a Magic Circle law firm, and you've missed out all the negatives; most lawyers' working lives are nothing like you've described, and the ones who do manage to make it to the upper echelons of the profession still have to deal with colossal stress and pressure, the kind which I doubt an expensive suit and an expense account will really do much to alleviate.
- NhanH 7y ago
  At any given moment, there are at most around 500k H1B visa holders in the US, for all industries and companies. There are 90 millions working American, may be a third (half?) in white collar jobs that would employ H1b. There just straight up aren't enough H1bs to affect the job market. I don't live in the US, for the usual disclaimer.
  - chrshawkes 7y ago
    I think those numbers are bogus based on my personal experience. I do live in the USA and work in tech the past 10 years.
    - joshuamorton 7y ago
      Those are the official numbers. In fact in 2018 it was 419637. There are other visas (GC, as an example), but H1B are more of a Boogeyman than they deserve.
      - 7y ago

eldavido 7y ago

https://blog.shortbar.com/the-end-of-the-country-developer-7b9a184d4cf1 https://blog.shortbar.com/the-end-of-the-country-developer-7... I wrote that about two years ago. There are many parallels between how attorneys and software people work which I think you recognize. One I've brought up several times already in this discussion is that where one chooses to work -- not just how well one interviews, how hard one negotiates, etc., has a big bearing on pay. And there are many reasons why someone might choose to work in a non-FAANG (parallel: BigLaw) setting. Maybe they want to live somewhere else, they enjoy a more specialized boutique area of work, they want more lifestyle flexibility, etc. Larger point, us devs could learn a lot looking at how attorneys or other professions think through these tradeoffs. Funny, I was talking to my wife earlier tonight about what we should aspire to. Is making as much money as possible really the goal? How much income is it worth to have a short commute and less stress? With a kid on the way in 2-3 months, I find my thoughts coming to this stuff rather often.

hiram112 7y ago

Unlike a lawyer (say top 25%) at a good law firm pushing 15 years of experience, I'm was already salary capped at about 35 years old, and can count on barely inflation-level raises for the rest of my career unless I move to management or start my own business. At 40, a good lawyer is making partner and starting to enjoy a share of his or her firm's profits. I'm still sitting in an open office working on Jira tasks without any idea of how my company is doing because engineers are completely isolated from the financial books, even at smaller firms. I am learning yet another JS framework, and not able to network or learn anything related to the business. I'm glorified 'IT'. The lawyer is wearing $1500 suits, flying business class to meet with clients and other attorneys, has an office and an expense account. I'm relegated to JIRA monkey tasks, and on another death march on Friday evening fixing bugs and eating "free pizza and snacks" our scrum master bought us for working another weekend. At 45, the lawyer is now making more and more money, and respected more as he's now an experienced attorney, and can assume he will probably continue his upward path for the next 15 years At 45, I just got replaced by some 25 year olds on H1Bs, and after doing well on several interviews but receiving no callbacks after the in-person, am researching Just For Men™ to get rid of the gray in my hair. I'll find it harder and harder to find jobs as I'm told I'm "not a great fit" for most teams, and will spend increasingly longer time periods completely unemployed, burning through savings. The jobs I do eventually get, will pay less than I earned at age 30. At 60, the lawyer, now full partner, owns a large chunk of his firm in equity, and can work what he wants. He's made enough to take it easy, or can put in more hours and keep pushing up his salary. I've pretty much given up as half the corporate jobs in my city were offshored or using H1Bs, and the rest are only hiring cheaper 20 somethings as there is now not much demand since the bubble just popped (again) like it did when I was 30, 40 ,and 50. At this point, I just pray I can make it to 65 and Medicare before getting really sick, and that my 401K will last me until I can take early social security at 63.

joshuamorton 7y ago
I think you're underestimating how difficult it is to make partner at a good firm. After ~10 years, between 5 and 10% of associates will make partner. You're comparing approximately the best possible outcome for a lawyer (makes partner at a high paying firm) with a mediocre-bad outcome for an engineer.
bshimmin 7y ago
This is an incredibly glamorised version of what a lawyer's life looks like (I say this as someone whose father was a lawyer for 49 years). You're describing, by the sounds of it, a partner at a Magic Circle law firm, and you've missed out all the negatives; most lawyers' working lives are nothing like you've described, and the ones who do manage to make it to the upper echelons of the profession still have to deal with colossal stress and pressure, the kind which I doubt an expensive suit and an expense account will really do much to alleviate.
NhanH 7y ago
At any given moment, there are at most around 500k H1B visa holders in the US, for all industries and companies. There are 90 millions working American, may be a third (half?) in white collar jobs that would employ H1b. There just straight up aren't enough H1bs to affect the job market. I don't live in the US, for the usual disclaimer.
- chrshawkes 7y ago
  I think those numbers are bogus based on my personal experience. I do live in the USA and work in tech the past 10 years.
  - joshuamorton 7y ago
    Those are the official numbers. In fact in 2018 it was 419637. There are other visas (GC, as an example), but H1B are more of a Boogeyman than they deserve.
    - 7y ago