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So you do disagree with the dictionary definition? Is that what you’re saying? The fact the IRS wants to tax you for bartering with a chicken doesn’t change an

So you do disagree with the dictionary definition? Is that what you’re saying? The fact the IRS wants to tax you for bartering with a chicken doesn’t change anything about the English language.

perl4ever 7y ago
I'm not aware of disagreeing with a dictionary definition. However, if a dictionary definition is presented to me, and it doesn't include a usage of which I am aware, that doesn't mean I disagree with it even then. It likely just means that something was left out - maybe because people still hope to sell dictionaries, or alternatively because, having given up on selling them, neither accuracy nor completeness is required to sell online ads.
- pmiller2 7y ago
  Well, ok, here’s one dictionary definition: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/pay https://www.dictionary.com/browse/pay Do you agree or disagree with it? According to this definition, am I “paying” to use Facebook?
  - perl4ever 7y ago
    I never "paid" attention to formal grammar in school, but this would seem to be the use of the word as a verb without an object. As such, definition #13 seems applicable - "money, goods, etc." can't possibly be construed to mean "money and not goods, etc."...can it? Definition #17 might also apply - you "pay" to use Facebook, oh how you pay... Anyway, I don't have any particular issues with this entry, and I think the very first definition demonstrates that payment is commonly understood to include "doing something" which is an extremely broad category.
    - pmiller2 7y ago
      What’s debt do you owe to Facebook that you have to settle as in definition 1? Definition 17, while fitting, is outside the scope of this current thread. The point is, Facebook only cares about your experience with their service if you are paying them money. Even the IRS doesn’t care; Facebook doesn’t send you a 1099 for your use of their service, do they? The IRS doesn’t charge them tax on your data, do they? This would seem to indicate that the situation falls outside the “exchange of value for value” type definition of “pay.”
      - perl4ever 7y ago
        Pointing out that the IRS includes certain things in payment that you don't isn't a claim that some definition they use limits the usage of the word payment. The point is not that everybody should use the IRS definition for words. The IRS provides evidence about what people do in the world; you don't have to (nor was I asking for you to) accept them as the authority. If I understand your dismissal of definition (1), you are implying that it is significant that definition (2) by contrast only says "money" and uses an example of dollars. I think that's too legalistic and just an artifact of the way things were edited. Dictionaries aren't written to prevent lawyers from finding loopholes, so I don't think you can count on everything being repeated absolutely uniformly. In actual legal documents, they define terms or phrases used repeatedly up front to reduce the repetition, and dictionaries don't seem to customarily do that. So again, definition (1) is evidence about how people behave in the world, not necessarily the definition we are using and from an unimpeachable authority.
        pmiller2 7y ago
        No, you do not understand why definition 1 does not apply. The question was: what debt do you owe to Facebook to settle? I claim there is none. Therefore, you are not acting in accordance with definition 1 when providing information to or viewing ads from Facebook.
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]

So you do disagree with the dictionary definition? Is that what you’re saying? The fact the IRS wants to tax you for bartering with a chicken doesn’t change anything about the English language.

perl4ever 7y ago

I'm not aware of disagreeing with a dictionary definition. However, if a dictionary definition is presented to me, and it doesn't include a usage of which I am aware, that doesn't mean I disagree with it even then. It likely just means that something was left out - maybe because people still hope to sell dictionaries, or alternatively because, having given up on selling them, neither accuracy nor completeness is required to sell online ads.

pmiller2 7y ago
Well, ok, here’s one dictionary definition: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/pay https://www.dictionary.com/browse/pay Do you agree or disagree with it? According to this definition, am I “paying” to use Facebook?
- perl4ever 7y ago
  I never "paid" attention to formal grammar in school, but this would seem to be the use of the word as a verb without an object. As such, definition #13 seems applicable - "money, goods, etc." can't possibly be construed to mean "money and not goods, etc."...can it? Definition #17 might also apply - you "pay" to use Facebook, oh how you pay... Anyway, I don't have any particular issues with this entry, and I think the very first definition demonstrates that payment is commonly understood to include "doing something" which is an extremely broad category.
  - pmiller2 7y ago
    What’s debt do you owe to Facebook that you have to settle as in definition 1? Definition 17, while fitting, is outside the scope of this current thread. The point is, Facebook only cares about your experience with their service if you are paying them money. Even the IRS doesn’t care; Facebook doesn’t send you a 1099 for your use of their service, do they? The IRS doesn’t charge them tax on your data, do they? This would seem to indicate that the situation falls outside the “exchange of value for value” type definition of “pay.”
    - perl4ever 7y ago
      Pointing out that the IRS includes certain things in payment that you don't isn't a claim that some definition they use limits the usage of the word payment. The point is not that everybody should use the IRS definition for words. The IRS provides evidence about what people do in the world; you don't have to (nor was I asking for you to) accept them as the authority. If I understand your dismissal of definition (1), you are implying that it is significant that definition (2) by contrast only says "money" and uses an example of dollars. I think that's too legalistic and just an artifact of the way things were edited. Dictionaries aren't written to prevent lawyers from finding loopholes, so I don't think you can count on everything being repeated absolutely uniformly. In actual legal documents, they define terms or phrases used repeatedly up front to reduce the repetition, and dictionaries don't seem to customarily do that. So again, definition (1) is evidence about how people behave in the world, not necessarily the definition we are using and from an unimpeachable authority.
      - pmiller2 7y ago
        No, you do not understand why definition 1 does not apply. The question was: what debt do you owe to Facebook to settle? I claim there is none. Therefore, you are not acting in accordance with definition 1 when providing information to or viewing ads from Facebook.
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]