3 ms·

> And are almost certainly making up how "in touch" you are I think it's a bit over the top to tell people how they feel about something. I for one agree with

> And are almost certainly making up how "in touch" you are I think it's a bit over the top to tell people how they feel about something. I for one agree with OP. I actually enjoy driving. Maybe as much or more than some people enjoy listening to good music, write good code, or reading a good book. No point in belittling the experience just because you'd rather watch the movie. This being said I understand why there is this disconnect between driver and car. Not only are many people not that much into the activity of driving beyond its practical purpose (and they'd surely choose to delegate as much of it as possible if given the choice, for convenience), safety plays a very important role. The driver starts being the weak link and this delegation perhaps shouldn't be optional. Convenience, efficiency, or "feel" may be entirely your business but safety also concerns all those around you.

taeric 7y ago
My point in the "in touch" was supposed to be restricted to how in touch with the machine you are. It probably feels great, but there is a lot there that you are almost certainly incapable of feeling. And this is a giant false dichotomy. Some people enjoy these new cars. In ways people that enjoy the old may or may not understand. Again, I don't want to preclude anyone with these experiences. I just reject the romantic attitude that something is getting lost. It is just changing. In most objective terms, for the better.
- allovernow 7y ago
  Well...you are objectively better "in touch" with the machine when you have explicit control over, and are therefore force to pay attention to, the gear, coupling between engine and wheels (clutch), and traction. I don't think you can argue that modern cars aren't increasingly unloading a lot of driver responsibility onto the computer. I suppose it really is a question of how many different functions a driver has to pay attention to. In the limit you have a level 5 self driving car at which point you're totally removed from the experience and sure, by objective performance and safety metrics it's superior, but at that point there is no real pleasure derived from controlling the vehicle. > I just reject the romantic attitude that something is getting lost You really are losing aspects of control which some people enjoy managing manually. That enjoyment is the source of romanticization and those aspects are unquestionably disappearing. Granted, every person has their own happy medium on this spectrum of driving control, and personally I'd absolutely love an airplane style console where I have dozens of switches/dials to vary engine and suspension parameters, but I recognize that this is less than ideal according to safety constraints and market forces. As an analogy, the fact that I can almost blindly pick any combination of computer components and expect them to work when assembled means there is subset of techies who lament the good old days where you had to carefully choose compatible components, hunt for appropriate drivers, and occasionally come up with your own kludges. Yeah, it's objectively easier now, but it's perfectly valid to romanticize the thrill of doing it the old hard way. Risk gives spice to life.
  - taeric 7y ago
    But you aren't objectively in better touch. You just think you are. This is literally why we have gauges and other instrumentation panels, so that you can see what is happening. Otherwise, you would stick to the very bare necessities that you have in most go-carts. Which is not to say that stuff isn't fun. It is. A great feeling and when you are able to say something is off from just the feel, it feels good. Diagnosed some bad spark plugs this way. I just know I wasn't any closer to "feeling" the stresses on the rest of the machine. Especially when you consider the stresses hitting shocks and other parts. Again, I liken this to my road bike. I love the experience. It is nice to recognize that one of my gears needs replacing because I can feel it off. Nothing is lost here, for the folks that have internally geared bikes, though. Because I can still experience my derailer one. Which is the point. The experience is still there for those that want it. Just no longer on the same path as the rest of the folks. Your computer analogy falls flat. You can't just blindly put together a computer any easier than you used to. Which is to say a standard computer has always been easy. But design one in constraints. Get an arduino and make a small rc car. Use a Raspberry Pi and add a camera. :) Plenty of challenges that you can have along the way. You could almost certainly relive some of the old challenges.

taeric 7y ago

My point in the "in touch" was supposed to be restricted to how in touch with the machine you are. It probably feels great, but there is a lot there that you are almost certainly incapable of feeling. And this is a giant false dichotomy. Some people enjoy these new cars. In ways people that enjoy the old may or may not understand. Again, I don't want to preclude anyone with these experiences. I just reject the romantic attitude that something is getting lost. It is just changing. In most objective terms, for the better.

allovernow 7y ago
Well...you are objectively better "in touch" with the machine when you have explicit control over, and are therefore force to pay attention to, the gear, coupling between engine and wheels (clutch), and traction. I don't think you can argue that modern cars aren't increasingly unloading a lot of driver responsibility onto the computer. I suppose it really is a question of how many different functions a driver has to pay attention to. In the limit you have a level 5 self driving car at which point you're totally removed from the experience and sure, by objective performance and safety metrics it's superior, but at that point there is no real pleasure derived from controlling the vehicle. > I just reject the romantic attitude that something is getting lost You really are losing aspects of control which some people enjoy managing manually. That enjoyment is the source of romanticization and those aspects are unquestionably disappearing. Granted, every person has their own happy medium on this spectrum of driving control, and personally I'd absolutely love an airplane style console where I have dozens of switches/dials to vary engine and suspension parameters, but I recognize that this is less than ideal according to safety constraints and market forces. As an analogy, the fact that I can almost blindly pick any combination of computer components and expect them to work when assembled means there is subset of techies who lament the good old days where you had to carefully choose compatible components, hunt for appropriate drivers, and occasionally come up with your own kludges. Yeah, it's objectively easier now, but it's perfectly valid to romanticize the thrill of doing it the old hard way. Risk gives spice to life.
- taeric 7y ago
  But you aren't objectively in better touch. You just think you are. This is literally why we have gauges and other instrumentation panels, so that you can see what is happening. Otherwise, you would stick to the very bare necessities that you have in most go-carts. Which is not to say that stuff isn't fun. It is. A great feeling and when you are able to say something is off from just the feel, it feels good. Diagnosed some bad spark plugs this way. I just know I wasn't any closer to "feeling" the stresses on the rest of the machine. Especially when you consider the stresses hitting shocks and other parts. Again, I liken this to my road bike. I love the experience. It is nice to recognize that one of my gears needs replacing because I can feel it off. Nothing is lost here, for the folks that have internally geared bikes, though. Because I can still experience my derailer one. Which is the point. The experience is still there for those that want it. Just no longer on the same path as the rest of the folks. Your computer analogy falls flat. You can't just blindly put together a computer any easier than you used to. Which is to say a standard computer has always been easy. But design one in constraints. Get an arduino and make a small rc car. Use a Raspberry Pi and add a camera. :) Plenty of challenges that you can have along the way. You could almost certainly relive some of the old challenges.