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In what way is C++ "deeply" broken? I seem to be using it daily with no problem, as does the rest of the world. I manage to use applications and operating syste

In what way is C++ "deeply" broken? I seem to be using it daily with no problem, as does the rest of the world. I manage to use applications and operating systems where vast portions of it are written in C++ without problems - what problems are you having? Honestly, it's dead easy to criticise but you must be using the product of another language if you feel so strongly about this...? Tell me, which browser and operating system are you using to write this comment? It must be one written in something other than C++, right? Your browser isn't using WebKit or Blink by any chance is it?? Let's hope the web server or network appliances used to transfer the data to you are not using software written using this "deeply broken" language!

jefftk 7y ago
I mostly agree with you, but operating systems and web servers are generally written in C and not C++. For example Linux, (the vast majority of) GNU, Apache, and Nginx are all C. (Though I expect your parent has similarly negative views on C?)
- 72deluxe 7y ago
  You are correct, thanks. My comment comes across as very irritated, but it's the same argument that will continue to the end of time I guess - "this tried, tested and widely used language is broken because it is not language $x and because it lacks this edge-case invented usage scenario even though it works adequately for 99.9% of all other scenarios as demonstrated by decades of use". It's wearying. Sure, C++ is complicated but so is English! I thought nginx was C++? I also thought large portions of Windows are C++? Everybody loves COM!
  - jefftk 7y ago
    Nginx is C, and the authors really don't like C++. (I used to work on ngx_pagespeed, which was a C++ server module that plugged into Nginx to rewrite pages so they would load faster.)
    - 72deluxe 7y ago
      Thanks for the info! Did they approve of your module?
      - jefftk 7y ago
        They liked that we were building something cool for their server, but our approach was so different from theirs (in ways that went way beyond the language) that our module wasn't ever going to become officially part of Nginx or anything.
- dgellow 7y ago
  To balance with what you say: Windows is mainly C for the kernel, and C++ for the rest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_NT#Programming_language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_NT#Programming_languag.... That's around 90% of the desktop/laptop market. IIS, Microsoft's web server, is C++ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Information_Services https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Information_Services. I think it is still the 3rd most popular web server in the worldwide.
  - marcoperaza 7y ago
    A significant portion of the C++ code in Windows uses very few C++ features or idioms and is basically C with classes or one or two useful features.
    - pjmlp 7y ago
      Which is still C++.
      - marcoperaza 7y ago
        Absolutely, but that kind of code doesn’t really speak to complaints about modern C++ and all it’s become. I just wanted to chime in with that extra information. I don’t really have a dog in the fight, other than having a lot of love for C and good C code.
      - rleigh 7y ago
        It is, but I do wonder if a large part of the problem with regard to using C++ features on Windows is the poor support for it in the ancient COFF linker and binary format they support. Lots of stuff like template export is possible with ELF which is impossible or dangerous on Windows.
        marcoperaza 7y ago
        I can also attest that lots of “modern C++” code exists in Windows. There is code in Windows that was written yesterday and code in Windows that was written over three decades ago.
- gigatexal 7y ago
  No my terrible grasp of English even as a native speaker is the cause of this confusion. What I meant was: “No I meant that from cppreference using coroutines means you can’t use the features I mentioned not that those features don’t exist in c++20“
- stjohnswarts 7y ago
  There's no reason that any of those couldn't be written in c++ by good coders. It's just a historical thing.
  - jefftk 7y ago
    My parent was arguing "C++ can't be as bad as you say, look at all these things written that use it". Things written in C are not evidence for this, anymore than things written in assembly.
yati 7y ago
I also use C++ everyday, and find it quite powerful, but I also feel that it is ill designed. The other day I had to work with code that involved a public member function that returns a private type. You can only bind to the return value of this function with auto (because the type is private), but can otherwise do anything with the object. Why this is allowed is beyond me. You're right that much of the software we use is written in C++, for good reasons, but asking people to "use a product of another language" just because they are critical (in a not so nice way, admitted) of it is going a bit too far. It's like asking someone to move to a different country because they think their system is "broken beyond repair".
- shortoncash 7y ago
  Your design above with the private type being returned could possibly be useful. Perhaps outsiders to the class will be prevented from instantiating the nested-type without using the class itself to generate the nested type. This could be contextually useful and certain (interface) functionality could be grouped in a manner that is more convenient to use than by calling methods on the original class. I like that C++ allows us to express this situation, even if it's a bit of an unusual design pattern.
  - yati 7y ago
    You can prevent instantiation of the nested type already by using private ctors and friending the wrapper class from this type, while keeping the class itself public. That is a much cleaner expression of intent. I believe that if a class is usable via its interface, it is public any way (in that you will need to go and change all uses of this object should you decide to change the nested type's API, whether it is declared private or not). And also note that binding to the object at all has been possible only after C++11, while this "feature" works with earlier standards. That rules out the possibility of this being designed into the language with the express goal of achieving what you say (it doesn't matter, but just pointing out).
    - gpderetta 7y ago
      Visibiliy has always been sabout naming thing. You were always able to bind private types to template arguments (otherwise you would never been able to create an std::vector<PrivateType> or pass MyPrivateContainer to an std algorithm. What's new in C++11 is the ability to also bind locals, but that no more powerful than what you could do before (via a CPS transform).
leetcrew 7y ago
it's obviously possible to make useful things with c++. I too do this every (week)day. imo, the biggest issue with c++ is the lack of orthogonality. there is usually a "best" way to do something, but you have to read a lot to choose between the many other ways of doing it. the usual "best" way may not be applicable in your case because it is subtly incompatible with some older feature that's already being used. as an aside, I always get a kick out of standard library functions like std::addressof. you have to use stuff like this in highly generic templated code because you can't be sure that some clown hasn't overridden the `&` operator for some type that will eventually be passed to your function.

jefftk 7y ago

I mostly agree with you, but operating systems and web servers are generally written in C and not C++. For example Linux, (the vast majority of) GNU, Apache, and Nginx are all C. (Though I expect your parent has similarly negative views on C?)

72deluxe 7y ago
You are correct, thanks. My comment comes across as very irritated, but it's the same argument that will continue to the end of time I guess - "this tried, tested and widely used language is broken because it is not language $x and because it lacks this edge-case invented usage scenario even though it works adequately for 99.9% of all other scenarios as demonstrated by decades of use". It's wearying. Sure, C++ is complicated but so is English! I thought nginx was C++? I also thought large portions of Windows are C++? Everybody loves COM!
- jefftk 7y ago
  Nginx is C, and the authors really don't like C++. (I used to work on ngx_pagespeed, which was a C++ server module that plugged into Nginx to rewrite pages so they would load faster.)
  - 72deluxe 7y ago
    Thanks for the info! Did they approve of your module?
    - jefftk 7y ago
      They liked that we were building something cool for their server, but our approach was so different from theirs (in ways that went way beyond the language) that our module wasn't ever going to become officially part of Nginx or anything.
dgellow 7y ago
To balance with what you say: Windows is mainly C for the kernel, and C++ for the rest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_NT#Programming_language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_NT#Programming_languag.... That's around 90% of the desktop/laptop market. IIS, Microsoft's web server, is C++ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Information_Services https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Information_Services. I think it is still the 3rd most popular web server in the worldwide.
- marcoperaza 7y ago
  A significant portion of the C++ code in Windows uses very few C++ features or idioms and is basically C with classes or one or two useful features.
  - pjmlp 7y ago
    Which is still C++.
    - marcoperaza 7y ago
      Absolutely, but that kind of code doesn’t really speak to complaints about modern C++ and all it’s become. I just wanted to chime in with that extra information. I don’t really have a dog in the fight, other than having a lot of love for C and good C code.
    - rleigh 7y ago
      It is, but I do wonder if a large part of the problem with regard to using C++ features on Windows is the poor support for it in the ancient COFF linker and binary format they support. Lots of stuff like template export is possible with ELF which is impossible or dangerous on Windows.
      - marcoperaza 7y ago
        I can also attest that lots of “modern C++” code exists in Windows. There is code in Windows that was written yesterday and code in Windows that was written over three decades ago.
gigatexal 7y ago
No my terrible grasp of English even as a native speaker is the cause of this confusion. What I meant was: “No I meant that from cppreference using coroutines means you can’t use the features I mentioned not that those features don’t exist in c++20“
stjohnswarts 7y ago
There's no reason that any of those couldn't be written in c++ by good coders. It's just a historical thing.
- jefftk 7y ago
  My parent was arguing "C++ can't be as bad as you say, look at all these things written that use it". Things written in C are not evidence for this, anymore than things written in assembly.

yati 7y ago

I also use C++ everyday, and find it quite powerful, but I also feel that it is ill designed. The other day I had to work with code that involved a public member function that returns a private type. You can only bind to the return value of this function with auto (because the type is private), but can otherwise do anything with the object. Why this is allowed is beyond me. You're right that much of the software we use is written in C++, for good reasons, but asking people to "use a product of another language" just because they are critical (in a not so nice way, admitted) of it is going a bit too far. It's like asking someone to move to a different country because they think their system is "broken beyond repair".

shortoncash 7y ago
Your design above with the private type being returned could possibly be useful. Perhaps outsiders to the class will be prevented from instantiating the nested-type without using the class itself to generate the nested type. This could be contextually useful and certain (interface) functionality could be grouped in a manner that is more convenient to use than by calling methods on the original class. I like that C++ allows us to express this situation, even if it's a bit of an unusual design pattern.
- yati 7y ago
  You can prevent instantiation of the nested type already by using private ctors and friending the wrapper class from this type, while keeping the class itself public. That is a much cleaner expression of intent. I believe that if a class is usable via its interface, it is public any way (in that you will need to go and change all uses of this object should you decide to change the nested type's API, whether it is declared private or not). And also note that binding to the object at all has been possible only after C++11, while this "feature" works with earlier standards. That rules out the possibility of this being designed into the language with the express goal of achieving what you say (it doesn't matter, but just pointing out).
  - gpderetta 7y ago
    Visibiliy has always been sabout naming thing. You were always able to bind private types to template arguments (otherwise you would never been able to create an std::vector<PrivateType> or pass MyPrivateContainer to an std algorithm. What's new in C++11 is the ability to also bind locals, but that no more powerful than what you could do before (via a CPS transform).

leetcrew 7y ago

it's obviously possible to make useful things with c++. I too do this every (week)day. imo, the biggest issue with c++ is the lack of orthogonality. there is usually a "best" way to do something, but you have to read a lot to choose between the many other ways of doing it. the usual "best" way may not be applicable in your case because it is subtly incompatible with some older feature that's already being used. as an aside, I always get a kick out of standard library functions like std::addressof. you have to use stuff like this in highly generic templated code because you can't be sure that some clown hasn't overridden the `&` operator for some type that will eventually be passed to your function.