4 ms·

Comparing US and German law systems, plea bargains are really undermining the law system. No proof beyond reasonable doubt is necessary, because most people can

Comparing US and German law systems, plea bargains are really undermining the law system. No proof beyond reasonable doubt is necessary, because most people cannot afford a full trial. It's back to the middle ages, into the debtors' tower (pay for your own accommodation there thank you very much), work for our companies prisoner (and never vote again). As plea bargains were introduced for "efficiency" (convenience), I am not sure if they could ever be abolished again.

thaumasiotes 7y ago
> into the debtors' tower (pay for your own accommodation there thank you very much) I don't understand how you can 1. Arrest someone who doesn't want to be arrested; 2. Hold them in prison against their will; and then 3. Bill them for it. A fine is one thing, but stipulating that they did nothing wrong, how can they owe you money?
- thaumasiotes 7y ago
  Surely with so many people ready to downvote, there's someone out there willing to try justifying this state of affairs?
  - caymanjim 7y ago
    You're being downvoted for missing the obvious sarcasm.
    - thaumasiotes 7y ago
      Somebody's missing something, I guess.
- PaulAJ 7y ago
  Nobody wants to be arrested or held in prison. Legal systems are supposed to ensure that this doesn't happen without due process. 3: See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pay-to-stay_(imprisonment) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pay-to-stay_(imprisonment) As for "they did nothing wrong", in the USA people who don't have money for bail are held in jail until trial, which can be for many months, or even years in some cases. https://www.americasquarterly.org/aborn-prisons https://www.americasquarterly.org/aborn-prisons There are stories of prosecutors going to people held pending trial and offering them a deal: plead guilty, accept time served, and be out tomorrow, or maintain your innocence and carry on waiting for your trial in jail.
  - thaumasiotes 7y ago
    > people who don't have money for bail are held in jail until trial, which can be for many months, or even years Not great, but what I'm complaining about here is people who are held in jail, released (after an acquittal or just a judgment that there was no good reason to pick them up in the first place), and then billed for having the temerity to be held against their will. This is not how commercial exchanges normally work. It also isn't how criminal punishments work, since -- and I can't emphasize this enough -- there is no pretense that these people did anything wrong.
- mnm1 7y ago
  In the US, the police can just confiscate your money without arresting you and keep it. They then have a trial where they put the money on trial. Not a person. The money itself is on trial. The absurdity is beyond comprehension. The injustice even worse. So of course they can charge you for staying in jail or prison, innocent or not. No one gives a fuck about justice here. Everyone is also used to getting fucked over and money stolen from them by unscrupulous companies. It's a universal experience to be overcharged, charged for shit you didn't buy, etc. and it's not always possible to fix it with chargebacks etc. So this is just an extension of the existing culture that doesn't value justice or doing the right thing and explicitly allows bad actors to fuck people over. This attitude extending to prisons and jails is hardly surprising especially when combined with the idea that many Americans have that if you're arrested, you are presumed guilty even before trial and deserve to get raped in jail even if your crime was minor. That's before you even get a trial and this attitude is so prevalent a lot of people are murdered by cops in jail before they even get to trial. So yeah, in light of the entire culture revolving around allowing the powerful to fuck over the weak, it's hardly surprising innocent people have to pay for their jail and prison stay. They should be thankful to their captors they're still alive (this gratefulness towards one's abuser is discussed in another comment here).

thaumasiotes 7y ago

> into the debtors' tower (pay for your own accommodation there thank you very much) I don't understand how you can 1. Arrest someone who doesn't want to be arrested; 2. Hold them in prison against their will; and then 3. Bill them for it. A fine is one thing, but stipulating that they did nothing wrong, how can they owe you money?

thaumasiotes 7y ago
Surely with so many people ready to downvote, there's someone out there willing to try justifying this state of affairs?
- caymanjim 7y ago
  You're being downvoted for missing the obvious sarcasm.
  - thaumasiotes 7y ago
    Somebody's missing something, I guess.
PaulAJ 7y ago
Nobody wants to be arrested or held in prison. Legal systems are supposed to ensure that this doesn't happen without due process. 3: See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pay-to-stay_(imprisonment) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pay-to-stay_(imprisonment) As for "they did nothing wrong", in the USA people who don't have money for bail are held in jail until trial, which can be for many months, or even years in some cases. https://www.americasquarterly.org/aborn-prisons https://www.americasquarterly.org/aborn-prisons There are stories of prosecutors going to people held pending trial and offering them a deal: plead guilty, accept time served, and be out tomorrow, or maintain your innocence and carry on waiting for your trial in jail.
- thaumasiotes 7y ago
  > people who don't have money for bail are held in jail until trial, which can be for many months, or even years Not great, but what I'm complaining about here is people who are held in jail, released (after an acquittal or just a judgment that there was no good reason to pick them up in the first place), and then billed for having the temerity to be held against their will. This is not how commercial exchanges normally work. It also isn't how criminal punishments work, since -- and I can't emphasize this enough -- there is no pretense that these people did anything wrong.
mnm1 7y ago
In the US, the police can just confiscate your money without arresting you and keep it. They then have a trial where they put the money on trial. Not a person. The money itself is on trial. The absurdity is beyond comprehension. The injustice even worse. So of course they can charge you for staying in jail or prison, innocent or not. No one gives a fuck about justice here. Everyone is also used to getting fucked over and money stolen from them by unscrupulous companies. It's a universal experience to be overcharged, charged for shit you didn't buy, etc. and it's not always possible to fix it with chargebacks etc. So this is just an extension of the existing culture that doesn't value justice or doing the right thing and explicitly allows bad actors to fuck people over. This attitude extending to prisons and jails is hardly surprising especially when combined with the idea that many Americans have that if you're arrested, you are presumed guilty even before trial and deserve to get raped in jail even if your crime was minor. That's before you even get a trial and this attitude is so prevalent a lot of people are murdered by cops in jail before they even get to trial. So yeah, in light of the entire culture revolving around allowing the powerful to fuck over the weak, it's hardly surprising innocent people have to pay for their jail and prison stay. They should be thankful to their captors they're still alive (this gratefulness towards one's abuser is discussed in another comment here).