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Yeah, I've become acutely aware that I'm a product guy. I don't dream in algorithms. Scripting is really good for me, but CS is something I don't like. Scriptin

by randall 16y ago

Yeah, I've become acutely aware that I'm a product guy. I don't dream in algorithms. Scripting is really good for me, but CS is something I don't like. Scripting solves a problem for me the same way a camera solves a problem for a photographer. For most people, they'll be able to remember the images they produce, and they won't try to create something that means something the same way a photographer would. I'm similar. I create technology that solves an immediate problem for me, rather than some technological piece of mastery.

true_religion 16y ago
You don't necessarily have to love algorithms to go through CS. Personally, I always liked the linguistic aspects of CS--parsing, lexing, compiling and language semantics from the basic theoretical level through the practical aspect (e.g. how they relate to best practices, optimization, and design patterns). But when it comes to the fastest way to implement a sort, you shouldn't come bothering me. I won't doubt that low-level algorithms are important, but a pure disinterest in them makes me a pretty poor C programmer.
jessedhillon 16y ago
I don't mean to offend you but it sounds like you might not be a great programmer, although you still enjoy the idea of making stuff that's useful (even if it's not written well or a particularly challenging thing to do from a CS perspective).
- fuzzmeister 16y ago
  This sentiment annoys the hell out of me. There are many great programmers (mainly in the web world) that rarely work with algorithms or other traditional CS topics. Just because he says he's product-focused doesn't mean that his code isn't well written.
  - jessedhillon 16y ago
    If it doesn't solve any challenging or interesting problems, in what sense is it well written then? In other words if it's easy to write, it's easy to write well. (I hope we are talking about something more substantial than consistent braces and spacing style here.) I have a difficult time imagining that OP enjoys doing some of the more difficult things that are part of the programming universe: seems like he is interested in applying just enough script to Make It Go. You mentioned web development: I'm sorry but the majority of what's called web development is writing WordPress themes or Drupal modules, and most of this work is leveraging some API in tedious and uninteresting ways. Create this content type, do this when you save it, make this form, validate it like that, blah blah. A person who writes a plugin in WordPress to do the Nth most routine thing in the world (say, list posts in a particular order, for example) -- something that I have to do from time to time, just like anyone else who writes web-based software -- is merely connecting tubes. (Something I wrote elsewhere.) The point is this: to be a programmer means a specific thing, and it means more than stringing together statements in a language. My mom who can write `SUM(A1:A10)` in Excel is not a programmer, even though she can do some fairly complex things in a high-level language. And most kinds of contract web dev out there is writing the exact same functionality for the Nth time (or integrating someone else's plugin for the Nth time), by typing out the correct sequence of API calls against a commodity CMS. Or the frontend equivalent: embedding some off-the-shelf Javascript slideshow or a Facebook like button. If this is programming then we have a linguistic deficiency, because it's not even in the same category as the kind of work that goes on at the most innovative startups.
    - IsaacL 16y ago
      " I'm sorry but the majority of what's called web development is writing WordPress themes or Drupal modules, and most of this work is leveraging some API in tedious and uninteresting ways. Create this content type, do this when you save it, make this form, validate it like that, blah blah. " You're correct that lots of web development is simple. However, a very large assemblage of simple components is not simple, and lots of web apps are very large. For example: one of the first web projects I worked on was a game written in PHP and MySQL. At first, it went much faster than expected, as writing a basic CRUD app in PHP is very simple. However, as it grew, it turned into an unmaintainable mess, and I got my first lesson in some basic coding standards. My friend had a good distinction - there's "difficult" projects and "complicated" projects. Something that is difficult might require some clever algorithms and maybe more time spent with a pen and paper than at the keyboard/ Something that is complicated requires a lot of coding, and thus a lot of effort spent in organising that code.
- randall 16y ago
  For the record, I'm not a programmer. I agree. That was the sentiment I was trying to express. I can create useful products that are a step past trivial, but not engineering masterpieces.
fuzzmeister 16y ago
I feel the same way. While creating a cool piece of engineering is satisfying, it is nowhere near as satisfying as seeing real people enjoy the end product. For me, coding is a means to an end, rather than an end itself.

by randall 16y ago

true_religion 16y ago

You don't necessarily have to love algorithms to go through CS. Personally, I always liked the linguistic aspects of CS--parsing, lexing, compiling and language semantics from the basic theoretical level through the practical aspect (e.g. how they relate to best practices, optimization, and design patterns). But when it comes to the fastest way to implement a sort, you shouldn't come bothering me. I won't doubt that low-level algorithms are important, but a pure disinterest in them makes me a pretty poor C programmer.

jessedhillon 16y ago

I don't mean to offend you but it sounds like you might not be a great programmer, although you still enjoy the idea of making stuff that's useful (even if it's not written well or a particularly challenging thing to do from a CS perspective).

fuzzmeister 16y ago
This sentiment annoys the hell out of me. There are many great programmers (mainly in the web world) that rarely work with algorithms or other traditional CS topics. Just because he says he's product-focused doesn't mean that his code isn't well written.
- jessedhillon 16y ago
  If it doesn't solve any challenging or interesting problems, in what sense is it well written then? In other words if it's easy to write, it's easy to write well. (I hope we are talking about something more substantial than consistent braces and spacing style here.) I have a difficult time imagining that OP enjoys doing some of the more difficult things that are part of the programming universe: seems like he is interested in applying just enough script to Make It Go. You mentioned web development: I'm sorry but the majority of what's called web development is writing WordPress themes or Drupal modules, and most of this work is leveraging some API in tedious and uninteresting ways. Create this content type, do this when you save it, make this form, validate it like that, blah blah. A person who writes a plugin in WordPress to do the Nth most routine thing in the world (say, list posts in a particular order, for example) -- something that I have to do from time to time, just like anyone else who writes web-based software -- is merely connecting tubes. (Something I wrote elsewhere.) The point is this: to be a programmer means a specific thing, and it means more than stringing together statements in a language. My mom who can write `SUM(A1:A10)` in Excel is not a programmer, even though she can do some fairly complex things in a high-level language. And most kinds of contract web dev out there is writing the exact same functionality for the Nth time (or integrating someone else's plugin for the Nth time), by typing out the correct sequence of API calls against a commodity CMS. Or the frontend equivalent: embedding some off-the-shelf Javascript slideshow or a Facebook like button. If this is programming then we have a linguistic deficiency, because it's not even in the same category as the kind of work that goes on at the most innovative startups.
  - IsaacL 16y ago
    " I'm sorry but the majority of what's called web development is writing WordPress themes or Drupal modules, and most of this work is leveraging some API in tedious and uninteresting ways. Create this content type, do this when you save it, make this form, validate it like that, blah blah. " You're correct that lots of web development is simple. However, a very large assemblage of simple components is not simple, and lots of web apps are very large. For example: one of the first web projects I worked on was a game written in PHP and MySQL. At first, it went much faster than expected, as writing a basic CRUD app in PHP is very simple. However, as it grew, it turned into an unmaintainable mess, and I got my first lesson in some basic coding standards. My friend had a good distinction - there's "difficult" projects and "complicated" projects. Something that is difficult might require some clever algorithms and maybe more time spent with a pen and paper than at the keyboard/ Something that is complicated requires a lot of coding, and thus a lot of effort spent in organising that code.
randall 16y ago
For the record, I'm not a programmer. I agree. That was the sentiment I was trying to express. I can create useful products that are a step past trivial, but not engineering masterpieces.

fuzzmeister 16y ago

I feel the same way. While creating a cool piece of engineering is satisfying, it is nowhere near as satisfying as seeing real people enjoy the end product. For me, coding is a means to an end, rather than an end itself.