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Hackers could hijack a missile and kill a lot of people too. This is why we have security. And honestly modern cars are so computerized already I think your ar

Hackers could hijack a missile and kill a lot of people too. This is why we have security. And honestly modern cars are so computerized already I think your argument applies to them as much as autonomous cars.

ben_w 7y ago
“We’re already doomed” isn’t a good reason to not be concerned about new ways to be doomed. Yes, we have security. Yes, cars can (probably) already be hacked, perhaps even en-mass rather than in targeted ways. But: one the big advantages of machine learning in cars is that every car can learn from the experiences of every other car. That makes them monocultures. Monocultures are fragile. You find the weakness of one, you find the weakness of all. I want the benefits of the former without the risks of the latter. I don’t know if that’s even possible.
- umvi 7y ago
  > I want the benefits of the former without the risks of the latter. I don’t know if that’s even possible. That's where competition comes in. Just like AMD vs. Intel or OSX vs. Windows. If you find a weakness in one, you don't necessarily find a weakness in the other. Hence, finding a weakness in Tesla doesn't mean it will work against Waymo or Uber.
  - ben_w 7y ago
    To the extent that there is competition, there is an identical loss of opportunity to learn from each other’s mistakes.
est31 7y ago
> Hackers could hijack a missile and kill a lot of people too. That's a sunken cost fallacy. Only because other things are hackable as well doesn't mean there is no danger. > And honestly modern cars are so computerized already I think your argument applies to them as much as autonomous cars. I've said that in my comment above as well, but it was in an edit before you replied so I guess you didn't refresh before submitting the comment.
- dmurray 7y ago
  > That's a sunken cost fallacy. Only because other things are hackable as well doesn't mean there is no danger. It's really not a sunken cost fallacy. It's good evidence that the "think of the terrorists" angle is overblown. There are plenty of other problems with self-driving cars, but not that one.
  - rixed 7y ago
    And plenty of other problems with missiles before that one too. As the news dramatically reminded us recently, the number one cause of non accidental casualties in plane is being shot down by the military, by a very large margin before terrorism. Similarly it is not hard to guess that car related casualties due to terrorism is never going to be significant compared to others. Terrorism overall is not a big issue, despite we like to think that our main problems are caused by a few malignant individuals.
yellow_lead 7y ago
I'll bite. Aside from Tesla owners, I do not know anyone in my life today whose vehicle connects to the Internet. Of course, I mean to say I don't see how your comparison to present day is accurate.
- NullPrefix 7y ago
  >Aside from Tesla owners, I do not know anyone in my life today whose vehicle connects to the Internet When did the whole OnStar botnet start? I think it's earlier than 2010.
  - yellow_lead 7y ago
    I wasn't aware of that. I suppose that would count as the car, but doesn't most car hacking occur when the component has access to i.e the CAM bus?
    - Vendan 7y ago
      Why do you think OnStar doesn't have access to the can bus https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10008228 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10008228
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- shagie 7y ago
  There was the Jeep a few years ago... https://www.wired.com/2015/07/hackers-remotely-kill-jeep-highway/ https://www.wired.com/2015/07/hackers-remotely-kill-jeep-hig...
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- jupp0r 7y ago
  My 2017 Ford connects to wifi.
- deleted 7y ago
brandonmenc 7y ago
Come on, you know missiles are locked down with way more security than consumer vehicles.
ClumsyPilot 7y ago
I am sorry, what? Which missile system can be hacked and launched remotely? This is a ridiculous claim. Cars are already getting hacked. The whole point of the post is to highlight how car manufacturers have no concern or competence for security, is will be like the boeing scandal but much worse.
- wozniacki 7y ago
  At best, youre conflating two vastly different things - Boeing engineers and car manufacturers. At worst, youre a troll. Cars are no where being hacked at the scale or magnitude that affected the numbers involved in the Boeing fumble. No where near. Not even remotely close.

ben_w 7y ago

“We’re already doomed” isn’t a good reason to not be concerned about new ways to be doomed. Yes, we have security. Yes, cars can (probably) already be hacked, perhaps even en-mass rather than in targeted ways. But: one the big advantages of machine learning in cars is that every car can learn from the experiences of every other car. That makes them monocultures. Monocultures are fragile. You find the weakness of one, you find the weakness of all. I want the benefits of the former without the risks of the latter. I don’t know if that’s even possible.

umvi 7y ago
> I want the benefits of the former without the risks of the latter. I don’t know if that’s even possible. That's where competition comes in. Just like AMD vs. Intel or OSX vs. Windows. If you find a weakness in one, you don't necessarily find a weakness in the other. Hence, finding a weakness in Tesla doesn't mean it will work against Waymo or Uber.
- ben_w 7y ago
  To the extent that there is competition, there is an identical loss of opportunity to learn from each other’s mistakes.

est31 7y ago

> Hackers could hijack a missile and kill a lot of people too. That's a sunken cost fallacy. Only because other things are hackable as well doesn't mean there is no danger. > And honestly modern cars are so computerized already I think your argument applies to them as much as autonomous cars. I've said that in my comment above as well, but it was in an edit before you replied so I guess you didn't refresh before submitting the comment.

dmurray 7y ago
> That's a sunken cost fallacy. Only because other things are hackable as well doesn't mean there is no danger. It's really not a sunken cost fallacy. It's good evidence that the "think of the terrorists" angle is overblown. There are plenty of other problems with self-driving cars, but not that one.
- rixed 7y ago
  And plenty of other problems with missiles before that one too. As the news dramatically reminded us recently, the number one cause of non accidental casualties in plane is being shot down by the military, by a very large margin before terrorism. Similarly it is not hard to guess that car related casualties due to terrorism is never going to be significant compared to others. Terrorism overall is not a big issue, despite we like to think that our main problems are caused by a few malignant individuals.

yellow_lead 7y ago

I'll bite. Aside from Tesla owners, I do not know anyone in my life today whose vehicle connects to the Internet. Of course, I mean to say I don't see how your comparison to present day is accurate.

NullPrefix 7y ago
>Aside from Tesla owners, I do not know anyone in my life today whose vehicle connects to the Internet When did the whole OnStar botnet start? I think it's earlier than 2010.
- yellow_lead 7y ago
  I wasn't aware of that. I suppose that would count as the car, but doesn't most car hacking occur when the component has access to i.e the CAM bus?
  - Vendan 7y ago
    Why do you think OnStar doesn't have access to the can bus https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10008228 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10008228
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
shagie 7y ago
There was the Jeep a few years ago... https://www.wired.com/2015/07/hackers-remotely-kill-jeep-highway/ https://www.wired.com/2015/07/hackers-remotely-kill-jeep-hig...
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
jupp0r 7y ago
My 2017 Ford connects to wifi.
deleted 7y ago

brandonmenc 7y ago

Come on, you know missiles are locked down with way more security than consumer vehicles.

ClumsyPilot 7y ago

I am sorry, what? Which missile system can be hacked and launched remotely? This is a ridiculous claim. Cars are already getting hacked. The whole point of the post is to highlight how car manufacturers have no concern or competence for security, is will be like the boeing scandal but much worse.

wozniacki 7y ago
At best, youre conflating two vastly different things - Boeing engineers and car manufacturers. At worst, youre a troll. Cars are no where being hacked at the scale or magnitude that affected the numbers involved in the Boeing fumble. No where near. Not even remotely close.