5 ms·

The counter-example to this is train tracks. (There are minimum standards for roads, too.)

by zamfi 7y ago

rkagerer 7y ago
Self driving trains would probably be easier. Aren't there already some airport shuttle trains and metro transit that's fully automated? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automated_train_systems https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automated_train_syst...
- bpye 7y ago
  SkyTrain in Vancouver, BC for example is fully automated. It works well unless there are issues with track or sensors, at which point it has to be driven manually.
  - actf 7y ago
    The SkyTrain is a great example of how easily transportation technology infrastructure fails during even slightly unexpected circumstances. The trains were inoperable for multiple times this past week, for hours at a time due to snow storms. Trains aren't exactly new technology, yet here we are with them still not functioning properly during what was actually a pretty routine snow storm. It doesn't leave me very optimistic for self driving cars, which will be significantly more compliced technology.
    - rkagerer 7y ago
      I agree with your point, although I don't think "slightly unexpected" is fair in this case. For non-locals, Vancouver and the region was hit with pretty heavy snowfall, ice and wind that week. Sources Footage of conditions in the city: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ek8dN9AoGbo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ek8dN9AoGbo Hydro woes and 150km/h winds in the region: https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/snow-day-highway-alerts-transit-delays-and-schools-closed-in-metro-vancouver https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/snow-day-highway-al... Transit status snapshot: https://www.vancourier.com/news/metro-vancouver-snow-results-in-commuter-chaos-travel-advisories-1.24053223 https://www.vancourier.com/news/metro-vancouver-snow-results... School closures, Blizzard warning: https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/snow-day-highway-alerts-transit-delays-and-schools-closed-in-metro-vancouver https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/snow-day-highway-al... Interviews about the ice buildup: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWgx99k585s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWgx99k585s Finally, a bit of fun; how Canadians deal with weather: https://bc.ctvnews.ca/video-shows-people-skiing-snowboarding-on-the-streets-of-east-vancouver-1.4765309 https://bc.ctvnews.ca/video-shows-people-skiing-snowboarding...
- frosted-flakes 7y ago
  Is self-driving the same as fully-automated? I think not. Self-driving implies intelligence, and fully-automated trains simply follow rote rules, and apply the emergency brakes if something unexpected happens. Not intelligent. Put another way, self-driving has unbounded complexity, while a fixed number of vehicles on a protected, grade-separated railway is not very complex at all.
- tim333 7y ago
  Docklands Light Railway works quite well with 45 stations. Humans can take over if needed. Running since 1987 so fairly old tech.
  - tialaramex 7y ago
    A DLR train has a trained operator, they just aren't (usually) driving. A few places have trains with nobody trained onboard at all. In the event of an emergency remote operators can talk to the passengers e.g. to explain that somebody will come to help or that it has been made safe for them to evacuate (automated trains are invariably electric so it may not be safe to just wander off the train outside a station).
- cpitman 7y ago
  FWIW, self driving trains are a very different problem. With self driving cars, the approach has been to use sensors on the vehicle and make autonomous decisions based on that input. This will never work for trains, because their stopping distances are so long that they cannot use a sensor to detect most oncoming issues. Self driving trains will require more coordination, with central dispatch to tell them when/where to go. That leaves the intelligence on the train much more basic.
  - qroshan 7y ago
    Except you can always install sensors that can look as far as you want
    - cpitman 7y ago
      Do you mean on the tracks? There are hard limitations on sensing onboard the train. Tracks that bend around hills, etc. I have some exposure to wireless communication for trains, and one of the limitations is that you can often not get a line of site even from one end of the train to another.
      - dredmorbius 7y ago
        Not OP, but yes, along the right of way. Since railroad tracks rarely get up and go walkabout, you can instrument them (conduction, video, lidar/radar) to the limits of your preferences and/or budget. Information can be relayed to both central control and individual trainsets.
  - iso947 7y ago
    So how do drivers stop with long stopping distance? They have signals to tell them “stop”, they have speed limits posted, they have route knowledge. All detectable by computers, even without changes. Fast trains have in cab signalling in any case. They have no decision about where to go (signal box sets the points/switch track), they have no decision on when to go (signal goes green) The only bit which may need human input is the “ok to depart” notification when all the doors are clear at a station.
harimau777 7y ago
Now that you mention it, I wonder if tracks would actually be a better solution for most use cases. I could see a situation where highways have tracks and you only have to actually drive at the beginning and end of the journey.

The counter-example to this is train tracks. (There are minimum standards for roads, too.)

by zamfi 7y ago

The counter-example to this is train tracks. (There are minimum standards for roads, too.)

Self driving trains would probably be easier. Aren't there already some airport shuttle trains and metro transit that's fully automated? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automated_train_systems https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automated_train_syst...

bpye 7y ago
SkyTrain in Vancouver, BC for example is fully automated. It works well unless there are issues with track or sensors, at which point it has to be driven manually.
- actf 7y ago
  The SkyTrain is a great example of how easily transportation technology infrastructure fails during even slightly unexpected circumstances. The trains were inoperable for multiple times this past week, for hours at a time due to snow storms. Trains aren't exactly new technology, yet here we are with them still not functioning properly during what was actually a pretty routine snow storm. It doesn't leave me very optimistic for self driving cars, which will be significantly more compliced technology.
  - rkagerer 7y ago
    I agree with your point, although I don't think "slightly unexpected" is fair in this case. For non-locals, Vancouver and the region was hit with pretty heavy snowfall, ice and wind that week. Sources Footage of conditions in the city: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ek8dN9AoGbo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ek8dN9AoGbo Hydro woes and 150km/h winds in the region: https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/snow-day-highway-alerts-transit-delays-and-schools-closed-in-metro-vancouver https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/snow-day-highway-al... Transit status snapshot: https://www.vancourier.com/news/metro-vancouver-snow-results-in-commuter-chaos-travel-advisories-1.24053223 https://www.vancourier.com/news/metro-vancouver-snow-results... School closures, Blizzard warning: https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/snow-day-highway-alerts-transit-delays-and-schools-closed-in-metro-vancouver https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/snow-day-highway-al... Interviews about the ice buildup: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWgx99k585s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWgx99k585s Finally, a bit of fun; how Canadians deal with weather: https://bc.ctvnews.ca/video-shows-people-skiing-snowboarding-on-the-streets-of-east-vancouver-1.4765309 https://bc.ctvnews.ca/video-shows-people-skiing-snowboarding...
frosted-flakes 7y ago
Is self-driving the same as fully-automated? I think not. Self-driving implies intelligence, and fully-automated trains simply follow rote rules, and apply the emergency brakes if something unexpected happens. Not intelligent. Put another way, self-driving has unbounded complexity, while a fixed number of vehicles on a protected, grade-separated railway is not very complex at all.
tim333 7y ago
Docklands Light Railway works quite well with 45 stations. Humans can take over if needed. Running since 1987 so fairly old tech.
- tialaramex 7y ago
  A DLR train has a trained operator, they just aren't (usually) driving. A few places have trains with nobody trained onboard at all. In the event of an emergency remote operators can talk to the passengers e.g. to explain that somebody will come to help or that it has been made safe for them to evacuate (automated trains are invariably electric so it may not be safe to just wander off the train outside a station).
cpitman 7y ago
FWIW, self driving trains are a very different problem. With self driving cars, the approach has been to use sensors on the vehicle and make autonomous decisions based on that input. This will never work for trains, because their stopping distances are so long that they cannot use a sensor to detect most oncoming issues. Self driving trains will require more coordination, with central dispatch to tell them when/where to go. That leaves the intelligence on the train much more basic.
- qroshan 7y ago
  Except you can always install sensors that can look as far as you want
  - cpitman 7y ago
    Do you mean on the tracks? There are hard limitations on sensing onboard the train. Tracks that bend around hills, etc. I have some exposure to wireless communication for trains, and one of the limitations is that you can often not get a line of site even from one end of the train to another.
    - dredmorbius 7y ago
      Not OP, but yes, along the right of way. Since railroad tracks rarely get up and go walkabout, you can instrument them (conduction, video, lidar/radar) to the limits of your preferences and/or budget. Information can be relayed to both central control and individual trainsets.
- iso947 7y ago
  So how do drivers stop with long stopping distance? They have signals to tell them “stop”, they have speed limits posted, they have route knowledge. All detectable by computers, even without changes. Fast trains have in cab signalling in any case. They have no decision about where to go (signal box sets the points/switch track), they have no decision on when to go (signal goes green) The only bit which may need human input is the “ok to depart” notification when all the doors are clear at a station.

harimau777 7y ago

Now that you mention it, I wonder if tracks would actually be a better solution for most use cases. I could see a situation where highways have tracks and you only have to actually drive at the beginning and end of the journey.