4 ms·

Tesla has an long uphill battle trying to get it's factory built in Berlin. I also feel they're probably underestimating the seriousness with which Germans take

Tesla has an long uphill battle trying to get it's factory built in Berlin. I also feel they're probably underestimating the seriousness with which Germans take their worker's rights.

toomuchtodo 7y ago
Germany has little choice. Their economy is heavily dependent on their auto industry, which will contract as EV demand scales up. Of all automakers, I would think Tesla would be the least impactful based on their experiences at Gigafactory 1. https://finance.yahoo.com/news/declining-car-sales-help-drive-162158679.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/declining-car-sales-help-driv... (Declining Car Sales Help Drive Germany Toward Recession) https://www.tesla.com/ns_videos/tesla-impact-report-2019.pdf https://www.tesla.com/ns_videos/tesla-impact-report-2019.pdf (Tesla 2018 Impact Report)
- maxerickson 7y ago
  Your theory is that any EV builder willing to work in Germany will get to dictate terms? That seems unlikely given the wealth and industrial base devoted to the automotive industry there.
  - toomuchtodo 7y ago
    My theory is that Tesla is the least worst auto manufacturing partner Germany could work with (there are always compromises that must be made), and has the power to go elsewhere if desired (several other EU countries have been very vocal in their demand for a Gigafactory; China bent over backwards to provide financing to Tesla for Gigafactory 3 at very favorable terms, I could see something similar in the EU considering their negative interest rate environment). Whomever has the least to lose wins. Tesla is proven and has been derisked. I also think Tesla would be receptive to minimizing their environmental impact to the site, given their mission and marketing (see my link to Tesla's impact report in above comment). Does Germany want to be included in the next chapter of automotive mobility? That's up to them. Otherwise, take a trip to Flint, MI to see what the alternative path is (auto centric, of course). It's in Tesla's best interests to be a good corporate citizen, and they (in my opinion) walk the walk. Any environmental impact issues will be resolved and Gigafactory 4 construction will move forward. Disclaimer: Have toured Fremont and Gigafactory 1 facilities, TSLA investor, all that jazz
    - aguyfromnb 7y ago
      >It's in Tesla's best interests to be a good corporate citizen, and they (in my opinion) walk the walk. In which way are Tesla considered "good corporate citizens"? They are anti-union, not paying taxes in Nevada, being sued for racist environment in their factories, not fulfilling their obligations in Buffalo. I don't even feel like looking up other ones. They'd be lucky to be called "average" corporate citizens. Can you give examples of how they are "good"?
      - 93po 7y ago
        Being sued for something doesn't make it legitimate.
        perl4ever 7y ago
        This sort of thing sounds plausible, until you work in the legal industry and see how big corporations are involved in hundreds of lawsuits at any given time. Are they all just bad luck, or irrational people, or a conspiracy of plaintiffs' lawyers? Or are they just the product of any large company screwing up peoples' lives every day? Most lawsuits don't even attract the clickbait journalism you read.
      - toomuchtodo 7y ago
        Sure. They invest in electric mobility when it’s the hardest path forward. They aren’t perfect, no corporation is, there is always room to do better (Legacy automakers have had the same racism issues in their facilities; I can point to the Ford stamping plant in Northern Indiana and public documentation of it occurring there). Compared to VW and Dieselgate, they’re saintly. VW should’ve been dissolved for what they did. But Tesla using tax subsidies in Nevada and not meeting Buffalo inventive targets? Absolutely minor issues.
        aguyfromnb 7y ago
        >Compared to VW and Dieselgate, they’re saintly. Your baseline for being a "good" corporate citizen is "better than VW"? That's a low bar. The fact that you can point to 2 or 3 different analogues for corporate misdemeanor proves my point. Tesla is one company. >But Tesla using tax subsidies in Nevada and not meeting Buffalo inventive targets? It's not about "using subsidies". It's about making promises tied to those subsidies and not fulfilling them. Tesla is in tax arrears in Nevada. How is that possible for such a successful company? That money pays for services the company and employees uses. Is that something a "good corporate citizen" would allow to happen? What about violating labour laws? Securities fraud? SWATing a whistle blower? I will ask you this plainly: why are Tesla getting loans from a government running internment camps, and telling us "China is the future"? Musk wouldn't sit on a commitee with Trump, but will take his business to China? Is this really something a "good corporate citizen" would do? This is an obvious line in the sand to me and many other people. Again, I make no claims that Tesla are necessarily better or worse than the next company. but you referred to them as "good corporate citizens". Attitudes like "you can do anything you want as long as it's in the name of being green" are going to seriously harm the climate change conversation in the long run.

Tesla has an long uphill battle trying to get it's factory built in Berlin. I also feel they're probably underestimating the seriousness with which Germans take their worker's rights.

toomuchtodo 7y ago

Germany has little choice. Their economy is heavily dependent on their auto industry, which will contract as EV demand scales up. Of all automakers, I would think Tesla would be the least impactful based on their experiences at Gigafactory 1. https://finance.yahoo.com/news/declining-car-sales-help-drive-162158679.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/declining-car-sales-help-driv... (Declining Car Sales Help Drive Germany Toward Recession) https://www.tesla.com/ns_videos/tesla-impact-report-2019.pdf https://www.tesla.com/ns_videos/tesla-impact-report-2019.pdf (Tesla 2018 Impact Report)

maxerickson 7y ago
Your theory is that any EV builder willing to work in Germany will get to dictate terms? That seems unlikely given the wealth and industrial base devoted to the automotive industry there.
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  My theory is that Tesla is the least worst auto manufacturing partner Germany could work with (there are always compromises that must be made), and has the power to go elsewhere if desired (several other EU countries have been very vocal in their demand for a Gigafactory; China bent over backwards to provide financing to Tesla for Gigafactory 3 at very favorable terms, I could see something similar in the EU considering their negative interest rate environment). Whomever has the least to lose wins. Tesla is proven and has been derisked. I also think Tesla would be receptive to minimizing their environmental impact to the site, given their mission and marketing (see my link to Tesla's impact report in above comment). Does Germany want to be included in the next chapter of automotive mobility? That's up to them. Otherwise, take a trip to Flint, MI to see what the alternative path is (auto centric, of course). It's in Tesla's best interests to be a good corporate citizen, and they (in my opinion) walk the walk. Any environmental impact issues will be resolved and Gigafactory 4 construction will move forward. Disclaimer: Have toured Fremont and Gigafactory 1 facilities, TSLA investor, all that jazz
  - aguyfromnb 7y ago
    >It's in Tesla's best interests to be a good corporate citizen, and they (in my opinion) walk the walk. In which way are Tesla considered "good corporate citizens"? They are anti-union, not paying taxes in Nevada, being sued for racist environment in their factories, not fulfilling their obligations in Buffalo. I don't even feel like looking up other ones. They'd be lucky to be called "average" corporate citizens. Can you give examples of how they are "good"?
    - 93po 7y ago
      Being sued for something doesn't make it legitimate.
      - perl4ever 7y ago
        This sort of thing sounds plausible, until you work in the legal industry and see how big corporations are involved in hundreds of lawsuits at any given time. Are they all just bad luck, or irrational people, or a conspiracy of plaintiffs' lawyers? Or are they just the product of any large company screwing up peoples' lives every day? Most lawsuits don't even attract the clickbait journalism you read.
    - toomuchtodo 7y ago
      Sure. They invest in electric mobility when it’s the hardest path forward. They aren’t perfect, no corporation is, there is always room to do better (Legacy automakers have had the same racism issues in their facilities; I can point to the Ford stamping plant in Northern Indiana and public documentation of it occurring there). Compared to VW and Dieselgate, they’re saintly. VW should’ve been dissolved for what they did. But Tesla using tax subsidies in Nevada and not meeting Buffalo inventive targets? Absolutely minor issues.
      - aguyfromnb 7y ago
        >Compared to VW and Dieselgate, they’re saintly. Your baseline for being a "good" corporate citizen is "better than VW"? That's a low bar. The fact that you can point to 2 or 3 different analogues for corporate misdemeanor proves my point. Tesla is one company. >But Tesla using tax subsidies in Nevada and not meeting Buffalo inventive targets? It's not about "using subsidies". It's about making promises tied to those subsidies and not fulfilling them. Tesla is in tax arrears in Nevada. How is that possible for such a successful company? That money pays for services the company and employees uses. Is that something a "good corporate citizen" would allow to happen? What about violating labour laws? Securities fraud? SWATing a whistle blower? I will ask you this plainly: why are Tesla getting loans from a government running internment camps, and telling us "China is the future"? Musk wouldn't sit on a commitee with Trump, but will take his business to China? Is this really something a "good corporate citizen" would do? This is an obvious line in the sand to me and many other people. Again, I make no claims that Tesla are necessarily better or worse than the next company. but you referred to them as "good corporate citizens". Attitudes like "you can do anything you want as long as it's in the name of being green" are going to seriously harm the climate change conversation in the long run.