7 ms·

My brother has just finished a masters programme and is starting to apply for jobs, he's coming up against a lot of these. He's smart, motivated, very hard wor

My brother has just finished a masters programme and is starting to apply for jobs, he's coming up against a lot of these. He's smart, motivated, very hard working, and has the necessary credentials on his CV, but when talking to him he's quite monotone and low energy. Because of this, he's failing these automated video interviews as he looks like he's not a "team player" or "personable". While interviewing practice is becoming more aware of bias against things like this, the training data for these "AI" systems are going to be based on those interviews conducted in the past, often with questionable outcomes. The software is sold as helping "remove bias", but it instead pulls interview bias forwards in more extreme ways to the CV-review stage, preventing candidates from ever getting in front of a human. While multiple humans on a hiring team may overcome some of their biases working together, a single piece of software trained to look for stereotypes will exacerbate those biases.

DenisM 7y ago
That’s just awful. So much for cognitive diversity, eh? I wish your brother best of luck.
austenallred 7y ago
Out of curiosity, how do you know that’s why he’s not being hired?
- danpalmer 7y ago
  They give automated feedback about your rating.
endothrowho333 7y ago
Would it be correct to say your brother is also not the type to network with others easily? An automated system is the last-line in hiring; recommendations -- internal and external -- are the first-line. If one finds themselves in a position where they're manually submitting cold resumes, it's almost always more productive to start networking into the companies you want to work at, and getting the recommendation firsthand, turning your resume into a hot one.
- danpalmer 7y ago
  That would be correct. > recommendations -- internal and external -- are the first-line I'm afraid this is a very tech-centric view. Outside of a few specific industries or the very top levels, this is essentially unheard of. My brother's educational background is biomedical sciences so he's looking for essentially lab work doing analysis for a hospital, drug company, or similar. There are a fair few jobs doing it, but they are relatively low level, have no "community", no real way to facilitate referrals. In tech it's easy to "network into companies" because companies are so open with their hiring – they hold events, they sponsor conferences that are priced so that people can pay their own entry, and there are community events where you can meet people from them. This is very far from the norm, until you get to the golf clubs where you can mingle with other execs.
  - Permit 7y ago
    > There are a fair few jobs doing it, but they are relatively low level, have no "community", no real way to facilitate referrals I’m only tangentially exposed to the biomedical field but I’m fairly sure this isn’t broadly true. I’m a member of a single cell RNA sequencing slack group whose members host a meetup twice a month. Most members work in wetlabs and many conduct research into the effects of various drugs on cancer. The groups are probably harder to find (than programming meetups) but I doubt there are none of them.
  - Enginerrrd 7y ago
    No, this is how it works in almost every industry. Even if that's how they try and force hires into the pipeline, if you're simply accepting that instead of circumventing it, you're success rate must be abysmal. I don't work in tech. But I've got about a 60% lifetime success rate (Job offers to applications). 100% once I got to the interview stage. And that's in a variety of industries: EMS, academic research, the energy industry, and civil/environmental engineering. I swear nobody has any hustle anymore. I've never bothered to make a LinkedIn or go to "networking" or "hiring" events. They're a waste of time. If you're really out of your existing network (you're probably already doing something seriously wrong if that's the case), you'd be better off figuring out where you want to work and then waiting at a nearby lunch spot for an obvious group of employees to come in around lunchtime (or after work drinks) and start chatting them up. (I actually landed a job doing that.) Or better yet, find a CrossFit gym some of them go to. Sweat and bleed and bond with someone a bit before you leverage them as a recommendation. There's a million ways into an organization if you want it badly enough. If nothing else you can get super good intelligence on how to craft your application to be desireable. Do your research, know your shit, know exactly what they're looking for before you ever turn in an application. Become that person to the core. Get any new certifications you need to be that person. Make every document you turn in to apply for the position fit that profile. Make every searchable piece of information about you on the internet align with that profile. Know the way they conduct interviews before you get there, and practice and rehearse the questions and flow of your responses in broad ways. Leverage your contacts in the organization to get information about each of the interviewers and how they think and approach interviews. You know, hustle.
52-6F-62 7y ago
I had never heard of these video interview analysis methods prior to this thread. I think it’s at the very least way too early to rely on this and at the worst just... terrible. AST’s are already notoriously bad and this is just a whole new level of just plain bad. Time is precious, sure, but so are human relationships if time means anything. It’s like nuance was completely disregarded in the pursuit of corporate contracts.
- danpalmer 7y ago
  They do sound terrible and I hope to never encounter one, but my brother made a good point: the NHS get something like 12k applications per week, they have an average of 25k job openings each month. They apparently can't deal with that manually, which does make some sense. I personally think they _should_ handle it manually, and if the system breaks we should fix it in another way because this way sucks, but I'm not sure what that would be. More consultancies or temp agencies? Not sure that's a better option.
  - 52-6F-62 7y ago
    You nailed it. Having encountered some of those kinds of agencies before—the other bad option seems better. It just seems like we need to incentivize ourselves in the better direction all the incentives currently seem to lie in (at least what is coming to look like) the wrong places.
  - jessewmc 7y ago
    That's barely two applicants per opening? There is no way that's a technological problem.
  - iamleppert 7y ago
    If a company isn’t willing or able to commit the appropriate resources to hiring, they should reduce their number of open positions, not look to technology to solve a self-created problem. Assuming they don’t have the resources to give people a proper interview and vet a candidate, can you imagine the situation once those that do pass actually encounter on the job? I’d never work at a place that makes such kinds of decisions and it’s a good signal that the culture at the top of the company is completely broken. Any company using one of these AI systems to combat attrition or justify growth is for sure a dumpster fire.
empath75 7y ago
Sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen. And a terrible way to build a company and culture.
tejtm 7y ago
> The software is sold as helping "remove bias"... I read this as the software is sold as a fig leafs to wantobe rules who are pretty sure they have no cloths.
- hakfoo 7y ago
  I'm amazed the lawsuits aren't already locked-and-loaded. All you need to do is acquire the software, feed in a video clip of a male/female or white/black applicant saying the same things (maybe use deepfakes to ensure consistency in delivery), and if the score is one iota different, you've got the developer, at best, having to try to explain away a lot of ugly black-box logic, and at worst, a cut-and-dry discrimination case. A human screener is probably somewhat biased too, but he's at least trained to provide a legally acceptable excuse for his choices.
  - dan-robertson 7y ago
    Who has the liability if the algorithm is found to be illegally biased? I assume it would be based on the contract (or perhaps there are other laws relating to having a service rendered illegally), but I wonder which way it goes
throwthisaway2 7y ago
Because he is not a team player... sounds they have done machine learning in who is good a "good ole boy". That is very soohiscated for the frat boys. Hats off. Time to evolve. In the end they need someone like your brother, and your brother is better off working for someone else. But maybe your brother can game the system that is gaming him. When software eats the world engineers are the muscle that clamps the jaw. Its not surprising that measures are being taken by those that will be eaten. I think the midlife crisis is worst for engineers because we have to come to terms that certain people have cheat codes in our logical system. Its typically called nepotism.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
trhway 7y ago
>but when talking to him he's quite monotone and low energy. Because of this, he's failing these automated video interviews as he looks like he's not a "team player" or "personable". i'm looking forward for the day when my AI "clone" - a very personable, cheerleader level bubbly and energetic deep-fake based of my face/voice - will charm away the dry pedantic HR AI on the other side of the screen.

DenisM 7y ago

That’s just awful. So much for cognitive diversity, eh? I wish your brother best of luck.

austenallred 7y ago

Out of curiosity, how do you know that’s why he’s not being hired?

danpalmer 7y ago
They give automated feedback about your rating.

endothrowho333 7y ago

Would it be correct to say your brother is also not the type to network with others easily? An automated system is the last-line in hiring; recommendations -- internal and external -- are the first-line. If one finds themselves in a position where they're manually submitting cold resumes, it's almost always more productive to start networking into the companies you want to work at, and getting the recommendation firsthand, turning your resume into a hot one.

danpalmer 7y ago
That would be correct. > recommendations -- internal and external -- are the first-line I'm afraid this is a very tech-centric view. Outside of a few specific industries or the very top levels, this is essentially unheard of. My brother's educational background is biomedical sciences so he's looking for essentially lab work doing analysis for a hospital, drug company, or similar. There are a fair few jobs doing it, but they are relatively low level, have no "community", no real way to facilitate referrals. In tech it's easy to "network into companies" because companies are so open with their hiring – they hold events, they sponsor conferences that are priced so that people can pay their own entry, and there are community events where you can meet people from them. This is very far from the norm, until you get to the golf clubs where you can mingle with other execs.
- Permit 7y ago
  > There are a fair few jobs doing it, but they are relatively low level, have no "community", no real way to facilitate referrals I’m only tangentially exposed to the biomedical field but I’m fairly sure this isn’t broadly true. I’m a member of a single cell RNA sequencing slack group whose members host a meetup twice a month. Most members work in wetlabs and many conduct research into the effects of various drugs on cancer. The groups are probably harder to find (than programming meetups) but I doubt there are none of them.
- Enginerrrd 7y ago
  No, this is how it works in almost every industry. Even if that's how they try and force hires into the pipeline, if you're simply accepting that instead of circumventing it, you're success rate must be abysmal. I don't work in tech. But I've got about a 60% lifetime success rate (Job offers to applications). 100% once I got to the interview stage. And that's in a variety of industries: EMS, academic research, the energy industry, and civil/environmental engineering. I swear nobody has any hustle anymore. I've never bothered to make a LinkedIn or go to "networking" or "hiring" events. They're a waste of time. If you're really out of your existing network (you're probably already doing something seriously wrong if that's the case), you'd be better off figuring out where you want to work and then waiting at a nearby lunch spot for an obvious group of employees to come in around lunchtime (or after work drinks) and start chatting them up. (I actually landed a job doing that.) Or better yet, find a CrossFit gym some of them go to. Sweat and bleed and bond with someone a bit before you leverage them as a recommendation. There's a million ways into an organization if you want it badly enough. If nothing else you can get super good intelligence on how to craft your application to be desireable. Do your research, know your shit, know exactly what they're looking for before you ever turn in an application. Become that person to the core. Get any new certifications you need to be that person. Make every document you turn in to apply for the position fit that profile. Make every searchable piece of information about you on the internet align with that profile. Know the way they conduct interviews before you get there, and practice and rehearse the questions and flow of your responses in broad ways. Leverage your contacts in the organization to get information about each of the interviewers and how they think and approach interviews. You know, hustle.

52-6F-62 7y ago

I had never heard of these video interview analysis methods prior to this thread. I think it’s at the very least way too early to rely on this and at the worst just... terrible. AST’s are already notoriously bad and this is just a whole new level of just plain bad. Time is precious, sure, but so are human relationships if time means anything. It’s like nuance was completely disregarded in the pursuit of corporate contracts.

danpalmer 7y ago
They do sound terrible and I hope to never encounter one, but my brother made a good point: the NHS get something like 12k applications per week, they have an average of 25k job openings each month. They apparently can't deal with that manually, which does make some sense. I personally think they _should_ handle it manually, and if the system breaks we should fix it in another way because this way sucks, but I'm not sure what that would be. More consultancies or temp agencies? Not sure that's a better option.
- 52-6F-62 7y ago
  You nailed it. Having encountered some of those kinds of agencies before—the other bad option seems better. It just seems like we need to incentivize ourselves in the better direction all the incentives currently seem to lie in (at least what is coming to look like) the wrong places.
- jessewmc 7y ago
  That's barely two applicants per opening? There is no way that's a technological problem.
- iamleppert 7y ago
  If a company isn’t willing or able to commit the appropriate resources to hiring, they should reduce their number of open positions, not look to technology to solve a self-created problem. Assuming they don’t have the resources to give people a proper interview and vet a candidate, can you imagine the situation once those that do pass actually encounter on the job? I’d never work at a place that makes such kinds of decisions and it’s a good signal that the culture at the top of the company is completely broken. Any company using one of these AI systems to combat attrition or justify growth is for sure a dumpster fire.

empath75 7y ago

Sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen. And a terrible way to build a company and culture.

tejtm 7y ago

> The software is sold as helping "remove bias"... I read this as the software is sold as a fig leafs to wantobe rules who are pretty sure they have no cloths.

hakfoo 7y ago
I'm amazed the lawsuits aren't already locked-and-loaded. All you need to do is acquire the software, feed in a video clip of a male/female or white/black applicant saying the same things (maybe use deepfakes to ensure consistency in delivery), and if the score is one iota different, you've got the developer, at best, having to try to explain away a lot of ugly black-box logic, and at worst, a cut-and-dry discrimination case. A human screener is probably somewhat biased too, but he's at least trained to provide a legally acceptable excuse for his choices.
- dan-robertson 7y ago
  Who has the liability if the algorithm is found to be illegally biased? I assume it would be based on the contract (or perhaps there are other laws relating to having a service rendered illegally), but I wonder which way it goes

throwthisaway2 7y ago

Because he is not a team player... sounds they have done machine learning in who is good a "good ole boy". That is very soohiscated for the frat boys. Hats off. Time to evolve. In the end they need someone like your brother, and your brother is better off working for someone else. But maybe your brother can game the system that is gaming him. When software eats the world engineers are the muscle that clamps the jaw. Its not surprising that measures are being taken by those that will be eaten. I think the midlife crisis is worst for engineers because we have to come to terms that certain people have cheat codes in our logical system. Its typically called nepotism.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

trhway 7y ago

>but when talking to him he's quite monotone and low energy. Because of this, he's failing these automated video interviews as he looks like he's not a "team player" or "personable". i'm looking forward for the day when my AI "clone" - a very personable, cheerleader level bubbly and energetic deep-fake based of my face/voice - will charm away the dry pedantic HR AI on the other side of the screen.