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>If Shogi, Checkers, or Stratego weren't human games I wouldn't be surprised to learn them from aliens. Why do all theories about aliens start with the implica

>If Shogi, Checkers, or Stratego weren't human games I wouldn't be surprised to learn them from aliens. Why do all theories about aliens start with the implication that they're similar enough that they developed the way we did, they think like we do, have similar senses, brain structure and locomotion. Any aliens that have evolved to any kind of level of intelligence would have done so under the conditions specific to their planet. Given the huge variation of life on Earth over its existence and that humans in their current form, or even animals in their current form, have existed for such a tiny insignificst fraction of time that it seems kind of preposterous to assume aliens elsewhere are anything like us in the slightest. Humans have problems anthropomorphizing animals as it is, but when it comes to aliens it just seems like everything starts with, well of course they must do the things we do....

CydeWeys 7y ago
Why are people so quick to assume that every single other alien species would be completely unfathomable to us? We all share the same physics, chemistry, and mathematics of our common universe. For example, there's only three dimensions, and there's only three regular polygons that can tessellate a grid. Unless you're going to posit that there's no alien species whatsoever that will even come up with the concept of a game (which I find highly doubtful), they're going to be using the same abstract mathematical concepts as we are in building said games, because only so many abstract mathematical concepts even exist. Our simplest board games aren't that far removed from the realm of the purely mathematical. And yet aliens won't all have their own completely different mathematical systems; such a thing isn't possible.
- andai 7y ago
  So, the smartest animals on earth apart from primates are dolphins, crows and octopuses. But most aliens are portrayed as humanoids. I can't remember a single alien movie with sea creatures or intelligent birds. But if anyone knows some, please let me know :) I think the body shape part is relevant here because it determines what kinds of games are possible or practical. A species of intelligent octopuses might play games involving changing their pigment (in wavelengths we can't even see!) or manipulating eight things at once. Bird games might involve flying competitions etc. Edit: I guess the important part here in a species inventing Go, is having a body that can make a board game (or similar representation). Hands are pretty good for crafting tables and moving small pieces around. Beaks and snouts less so. (I'd put my money with the octopus.)
  - CydeWeys 7y ago
    There are some birds that are better at tool use than you might think, too. It's worth pointing out that Go is a purely mathematical game. You don't need a board at all to play it, especially not if your memory is good enough. Chess Grandmasters don't need boards to play Chess, for example; they can simply say the moves to each other and both will have the same image of the board in their mind. So you could have intelligent aliens playing Go entirely verbally. Considering how many alien species there are likely to be, perhaps this is almost a certainty?
    - majos 7y ago
      > It's worth pointing out that Go is a purely mathematical game. You don't need a board at all to play it, especially not if your memory is good enough. Chess Grandmasters don't need boards to play Chess, for example; they can simply say the moves to each other and both will have the same image of the board in their mind. Is it common to be able to play Go without a board? That seems to require storing 361 bits in your head. I guess it’s much sparser than that for most of the game and has more structure than just 361 random bits, but that still sounds hard. Here’s a (strong?) amateur who claims to be the only person who can play this way [1]. [1] https://senseis.xmp.net/?BaoYun https://senseis.xmp.net/?BaoYun
      - CydeWeys 7y ago
        We're talking about hypothetical alien species here. But yes, Go is a purely mathematical game. If you don't have amazing memory you can represent those bits in a computer and it's still the same exact game. The physical board is just a physical representation of Go; it's not an actual relevant part of it (compared with, say, billiards). But yes, there are even some people that can play Go in their head. You're wrong about the amount of information though; each piece on the board has 3 potential states, not just two. Though you can chunk the board pretty effectively and it becomes more about memorizing larger patterns than the state of every single spot on the board. Plus, the board never fills up, so you only need to remember the spaces with pieces in them, not every space.
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- zeebeecee 7y ago
  Even assuming that the concept of "game" would exist elsewhere seems like a ridiculous assumption. All of the things you are saying, even "purely mathematical" are just reflections of the way humans sense the world. Any alien species you are imagining here is just a reflection of mankind. Anyway, since probably won't know anytime soon, and perhaps never, this kind of speculation is a bit useless. But if we ever found an alien species, it seems unlikely we would be able communicate with them any more than we can communicate with a piece of rock.
  - CydeWeys 7y ago
    I'm not saying that every alien species would have the same concept of a game, but you really think it's "ridiculous" that any other alien species might have a similar concept of a game? Adversarial games are not even that far removed from the normal competition that is part of natural selection that yields intelligence in the first place. You're making a lot of assumptions about things that you claim are impossible or would never happen, without explaining how you're coming to those assumptions. And the "communicate with a piece of rock" bit is just flat-out bad argumentation, as rocks aren't intelligent and thus cannot communicate by definition.
    - zeebeecee 7y ago
      Well so far we do not know, so again this is just speculation. Your guess might be as good as mine. There does not seem to be any serious scientific results in this direction, other than nonsense like the Drake equation. I think the variety among the possibilities for other intelligent species (if any) would far outweigh the number of them. Hence it might be probable that there would exist two similar ones, but it would be very improbable that any of them would be similar to humans. The point about "communicating" with a piece of rock was exactly that we cannot communicate them. Even if we would run into an alien species (which seems unlikely), it seems very improbable that any meaningful communication could happen.
  - jerf 7y ago
    "Playfulness" is fairly widespread among the intelligent animals of Earth. Mammals, birds, and cetaceans all seem to "play". From there it isn't that hard a guess that they might also "game", and for similar evolutionary reasons. Unless we're going to argue that Earth has some sort of unique concept of "playfulness" built into the original single cell, it's not that hard a guess that a good chunk of aliens out there might recognizably "game". Is everyone who thinks we stand no chance of communication really comfortable claiming that we're just soooo unique that we won't be able to communicate with anything? Because it's the exact same claim, just from a different viewpoint. Personally I think it's just fashionable misanthropy that will dissolve the instant you spin it in a direction where it might perhaps look like one is claiming it in a way that makes humanity look special.
coldtea 7y ago
>Why do all theories about aliens start with the implication that they're similar enough that they developed the way we did, they think like we do, have similar senses, brain structure and locomotion For the same reason the laws of nature are the same around the universe. Logic is not really that negotiatable, so thinking creatures will end up with the same kind of logic as us, even if they look differently. All forms of life are also not equally good at developing thinking and tools, so that's another pressure to converge to something similar-ish and e.g. not an underwater fish-like creature or some thing without a means to grab stuff and manipulate it (even if it's not opposable thumbs). >Humans have problems anthropomorphizing animals as it is I don't think anthropomorphizing is really a problem, or unscientific. In fact "anthropomorphizing" as a bad thing is probably based on religious inspired dichotomy between the man and the animals, where man is basically just another animal for 99% of intents and purposes. There's a bad form of anthropomorphizing animals (the Disney or pet owners way, which puts into animals exactly the human characteristics they lack more or don't have at all), but that aside, we share all kinds of insticts, physiology, deep brain structures, etc with animals.
- Cpoll 7y ago
  > For the same reason the laws of nature are the same around the universe. I wonder how much is cultural though? Go depends on a 2d grid, but is it possible that some alien Grade 9 math tends to use, say, distance and angle from origin instead of x, y? In that case the intuition for Go might not be there because they don't use grids, even though the math is ultimately the same. Or a culture that likes to use hexagons for their board games (hexagonal Go tends to be more shallow than grid-based Go).

CydeWeys 7y ago

Why are people so quick to assume that every single other alien species would be completely unfathomable to us? We all share the same physics, chemistry, and mathematics of our common universe. For example, there's only three dimensions, and there's only three regular polygons that can tessellate a grid. Unless you're going to posit that there's no alien species whatsoever that will even come up with the concept of a game (which I find highly doubtful), they're going to be using the same abstract mathematical concepts as we are in building said games, because only so many abstract mathematical concepts even exist. Our simplest board games aren't that far removed from the realm of the purely mathematical. And yet aliens won't all have their own completely different mathematical systems; such a thing isn't possible.

andai 7y ago
So, the smartest animals on earth apart from primates are dolphins, crows and octopuses. But most aliens are portrayed as humanoids. I can't remember a single alien movie with sea creatures or intelligent birds. But if anyone knows some, please let me know :) I think the body shape part is relevant here because it determines what kinds of games are possible or practical. A species of intelligent octopuses might play games involving changing their pigment (in wavelengths we can't even see!) or manipulating eight things at once. Bird games might involve flying competitions etc. Edit: I guess the important part here in a species inventing Go, is having a body that can make a board game (or similar representation). Hands are pretty good for crafting tables and moving small pieces around. Beaks and snouts less so. (I'd put my money with the octopus.)
- CydeWeys 7y ago
  There are some birds that are better at tool use than you might think, too. It's worth pointing out that Go is a purely mathematical game. You don't need a board at all to play it, especially not if your memory is good enough. Chess Grandmasters don't need boards to play Chess, for example; they can simply say the moves to each other and both will have the same image of the board in their mind. So you could have intelligent aliens playing Go entirely verbally. Considering how many alien species there are likely to be, perhaps this is almost a certainty?
  - majos 7y ago
    > It's worth pointing out that Go is a purely mathematical game. You don't need a board at all to play it, especially not if your memory is good enough. Chess Grandmasters don't need boards to play Chess, for example; they can simply say the moves to each other and both will have the same image of the board in their mind. Is it common to be able to play Go without a board? That seems to require storing 361 bits in your head. I guess it’s much sparser than that for most of the game and has more structure than just 361 random bits, but that still sounds hard. Here’s a (strong?) amateur who claims to be the only person who can play this way [1]. [1] https://senseis.xmp.net/?BaoYun https://senseis.xmp.net/?BaoYun
    - CydeWeys 7y ago
      We're talking about hypothetical alien species here. But yes, Go is a purely mathematical game. If you don't have amazing memory you can represent those bits in a computer and it's still the same exact game. The physical board is just a physical representation of Go; it's not an actual relevant part of it (compared with, say, billiards). But yes, there are even some people that can play Go in their head. You're wrong about the amount of information though; each piece on the board has 3 potential states, not just two. Though you can chunk the board pretty effectively and it becomes more about memorizing larger patterns than the state of every single spot on the board. Plus, the board never fills up, so you only need to remember the spaces with pieces in them, not every space.
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zeebeecee 7y ago
Even assuming that the concept of "game" would exist elsewhere seems like a ridiculous assumption. All of the things you are saying, even "purely mathematical" are just reflections of the way humans sense the world. Any alien species you are imagining here is just a reflection of mankind. Anyway, since probably won't know anytime soon, and perhaps never, this kind of speculation is a bit useless. But if we ever found an alien species, it seems unlikely we would be able communicate with them any more than we can communicate with a piece of rock.
- CydeWeys 7y ago
  I'm not saying that every alien species would have the same concept of a game, but you really think it's "ridiculous" that any other alien species might have a similar concept of a game? Adversarial games are not even that far removed from the normal competition that is part of natural selection that yields intelligence in the first place. You're making a lot of assumptions about things that you claim are impossible or would never happen, without explaining how you're coming to those assumptions. And the "communicate with a piece of rock" bit is just flat-out bad argumentation, as rocks aren't intelligent and thus cannot communicate by definition.
  - zeebeecee 7y ago
    Well so far we do not know, so again this is just speculation. Your guess might be as good as mine. There does not seem to be any serious scientific results in this direction, other than nonsense like the Drake equation. I think the variety among the possibilities for other intelligent species (if any) would far outweigh the number of them. Hence it might be probable that there would exist two similar ones, but it would be very improbable that any of them would be similar to humans. The point about "communicating" with a piece of rock was exactly that we cannot communicate them. Even if we would run into an alien species (which seems unlikely), it seems very improbable that any meaningful communication could happen.
- jerf 7y ago
  "Playfulness" is fairly widespread among the intelligent animals of Earth. Mammals, birds, and cetaceans all seem to "play". From there it isn't that hard a guess that they might also "game", and for similar evolutionary reasons. Unless we're going to argue that Earth has some sort of unique concept of "playfulness" built into the original single cell, it's not that hard a guess that a good chunk of aliens out there might recognizably "game". Is everyone who thinks we stand no chance of communication really comfortable claiming that we're just soooo unique that we won't be able to communicate with anything? Because it's the exact same claim, just from a different viewpoint. Personally I think it's just fashionable misanthropy that will dissolve the instant you spin it in a direction where it might perhaps look like one is claiming it in a way that makes humanity look special.

coldtea 7y ago

>Why do all theories about aliens start with the implication that they're similar enough that they developed the way we did, they think like we do, have similar senses, brain structure and locomotion For the same reason the laws of nature are the same around the universe. Logic is not really that negotiatable, so thinking creatures will end up with the same kind of logic as us, even if they look differently. All forms of life are also not equally good at developing thinking and tools, so that's another pressure to converge to something similar-ish and e.g. not an underwater fish-like creature or some thing without a means to grab stuff and manipulate it (even if it's not opposable thumbs). >Humans have problems anthropomorphizing animals as it is I don't think anthropomorphizing is really a problem, or unscientific. In fact "anthropomorphizing" as a bad thing is probably based on religious inspired dichotomy between the man and the animals, where man is basically just another animal for 99% of intents and purposes. There's a bad form of anthropomorphizing animals (the Disney or pet owners way, which puts into animals exactly the human characteristics they lack more or don't have at all), but that aside, we share all kinds of insticts, physiology, deep brain structures, etc with animals.

Cpoll 7y ago
> For the same reason the laws of nature are the same around the universe. I wonder how much is cultural though? Go depends on a 2d grid, but is it possible that some alien Grade 9 math tends to use, say, distance and angle from origin instead of x, y? In that case the intuition for Go might not be there because they don't use grids, even though the math is ultimately the same. Or a culture that likes to use hexagons for their board games (hexagonal Go tends to be more shallow than grid-based Go).