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This may be the best first large-scale use case for electric vehicles. Companies can better focus on total cost of ownership than with private light duty vehicl

This may be the best first large-scale use case for electric vehicles. Companies can better focus on total cost of ownership than with private light duty vehicles. The payback will also be better because of the greater utilization than with private cars. Lastly, there should not be large problems with charging infrastructure because all of these vehicles return to their depots at night.

mrep 7y ago
They can also probably deliver more packages per hour with how fast electric cars can speed up and regeneratively decelerate through stop signs and delivery destinations. Anyone with a tesla care to comment on how fast travel is through stop sign filled suburbs compared to ICE cars?
- HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago
  Disclaimer: I don't drive a Tesla. That being said, you really don't want to accelerate forwards quickly because you'll shred tires, and you don't really want to "decelerate" hard either because it's not good for your brake lifetime and passengers don't really enjoy it much. Electric cars with regeneration are more efficient than ICE vehicles, especially in stop-and-go traffic because when you don't need the power, it's not being used. Most gas vehicles still burn fuel spinning the engine while idling at a stop sign. So while yes, the acceleration may be faster, the real thing that's gained here is efficiency, because you can recapture some of the car's energy whrn stopping the vehicle.
  - bluedino 7y ago
    Hard braking isn't good for the front tires, either. Many vans are rear-wheel drive so hard acceleration wears the rear tires faster.
  - vardump 7y ago
    One thing Tesla drivers keep saying is that they hardly ever need to break. Just lifting foot from gas pedal is usually enough. So brakes should have longer lifetime.
    - frosted-flakes 7y ago
      Probably not much different from a car with a manual transmission (especially diesels), where the engine does most of the braking. The brakes on my mk4 VW Jetta TDI easily lasted more than four years[1], and even then only because corrosion killed them[2]. So I don't expect there to be much savings there. [1] The original clutch was changed at 450000 km. [2] The brake pads separated from the backing, even though they were only half-worn. Higher-quality pads might have prevented this, but the previous owner installed them.
- bagacrap 7y ago
  The regenerative braking only works for light braking. After that it's standard disc brakes. And I don't think flooring it off the line at every block through a residential area is a very safe idea, please don't encourage anyone.
  - vinay427 7y ago
    It's sufficient for nearly all city braking in my experience, sometimes with a little extra planning required, and with the exception of certain emergency braking situations. The only time I generally had to use the brakes were to completely stop below around 4 mph (6 km/h). On a Tesla the brake pedal only activates the standard disc brakes so you know when you're using them.
- aguyfromnb 7y ago
  >They can also probably deliver more packages per hour with how fast electric cars can speed up and regeneratively decelerate through stop signs and delivery destinations. Is this sarcasm??? Do you honestly think that regenerative braking is harder/faster than brakes? Are you the type of person that is hard accelerating from every stop sign in the suburbs?
  - mrep 7y ago
    No, harder and faster than coasting to a stop. Granted, full coasting to a stop really only makes sense for red lights but I'm assuming delivery drivers are doing some coasting when coming up to stop signs/yields which is what I do.
  - p1mrx 7y ago
    > hard accelerating from every stop sign in the suburbs? If you want to deliver lots of packages without violating traffic laws, then rapid acceleration seems like obvious low-hanging fruit. If the vehicle is quiet and nobody's in the way, then what is the problem?
    - aguyfromnb 7y ago
      >then rapid acceleration seems like obvious low-hanging fruit It's energy intensive.
      - p1mrx 7y ago
        Acceleration is power intensive, not necessarily energy intensive. You need (1/2)mv^2 to reach a given velocity, regardless of how much time is spent. If rapid acceleration happens to be less efficient, then that's just an engineering problem.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
zaroth 7y ago
FYI, as of Q4 Tesla is now selling roughly the same number of Model 3 cars (worldwide) as the entire US commercial van market. The vans also have significantly lower ASP. The US passenger car market is orders of magnitude larger than the commercial van market. 500k units vs 18 million units per year. $9 billion versus $650 billion in total annual sales. https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2019-us-commercial-van-sales-figures-by-model/ https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2019-us-commercial-van-sales-f...
- nexuist 7y ago
  Well, this makes sense, because nobody buys a van every year. It would be more interesting to see the total amount of vans purchased in the country and how many of them are 2010 models, 2000 models, 1990 models, etc. If an electric van can reduce operating costs by several orders of magnitude, it might make sense for fleet owners to switch over ASAP. Especially if their competitors do it first.
  - zaroth 7y ago
    > It would be more interesting to see the total amount of vans purchased in the country and how many of them are 2010 models, 2000 models, 1990 models, etc. What I quoted was annual new van sales. ~500k new vans purchased per year, growing at about 5% per year. A massive operating efficiency improvement might draw forward some new purchases / push existing vans into early retirement. Cost savings would definitely not be anywhere near an order of magnitude, but e.g. if TCO could go from $0.55 a mile conceivably to $0.40 a mile that would be very compelling. (Based on 15,000 miles a year, that would mean $8,250 goes to $6,000, saving $2,250) Note that TCO is including financing, taxes, insurance, depreciation, maintenance, repairs, and fuel. Fuel is about 30% of the TCO, so cutting fuel costs has a large effect. Depreciation on vans (after the first year) is pretty meager. Cratering resale value of ICE vans in the face of cheaper to operate EV vans will accelerate the transition to EV vans, but there’s still an adoption curve and an infrastructure challenge to face. The market share for EV vans is essentially 0 today.
  - anpago 7y ago
    Although they might not buy regularly a lot of Vans especially now with the huge delivery to end users market. The van is the public's face of the company. A scruffy delivery person looking hassled as long as not rude or disrespectful to your goods and turn up when expected most don't care about. As they know otherwise they will end up paying more for delivery... But a smoke belching van will get people commenting from my experience. At least in the UK people don't care much for the reg number (age) of a companies vehicle. But will size up a companies entire environmental policy on the eco credentials of the final step.
bluedino 7y ago
On the other hand, commercial vans are used for, commercial purposes. They get a lot of miles put them on them. They will need enough range to drive 100-150 miles, sometimes towing a trailer or full of heavy equipment. Another thing to think about is if you have a van with four workers in it, you have to pay those 4 workers if they stop to recharge on the road. Lots of times you're working on jobsites that are under construction and might not have charging stations, or power at all.
- mdorazio 7y ago
  So what you're saying is a van with just 200 mile range would cover the large majority of use cases better than an equivalent ICE van that's more prone to needing maintenance and has less storage space in the same body volume.
konschubert 7y ago
This electric delivery van is being rolled out by DHL in Germany: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StreetScooter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StreetScooter
walshemj 7y ago
Back when I was younger all the UK Dairies used electric milk floats for deliveries direct to the consumer.
- mhh__ 7y ago
  They do still exist although I think my local one is a modified diesel van.

mrep 7y ago

They can also probably deliver more packages per hour with how fast electric cars can speed up and regeneratively decelerate through stop signs and delivery destinations. Anyone with a tesla care to comment on how fast travel is through stop sign filled suburbs compared to ICE cars?

HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago
Disclaimer: I don't drive a Tesla. That being said, you really don't want to accelerate forwards quickly because you'll shred tires, and you don't really want to "decelerate" hard either because it's not good for your brake lifetime and passengers don't really enjoy it much. Electric cars with regeneration are more efficient than ICE vehicles, especially in stop-and-go traffic because when you don't need the power, it's not being used. Most gas vehicles still burn fuel spinning the engine while idling at a stop sign. So while yes, the acceleration may be faster, the real thing that's gained here is efficiency, because you can recapture some of the car's energy whrn stopping the vehicle.
- bluedino 7y ago
  Hard braking isn't good for the front tires, either. Many vans are rear-wheel drive so hard acceleration wears the rear tires faster.
- vardump 7y ago
  One thing Tesla drivers keep saying is that they hardly ever need to break. Just lifting foot from gas pedal is usually enough. So brakes should have longer lifetime.
  - frosted-flakes 7y ago
    Probably not much different from a car with a manual transmission (especially diesels), where the engine does most of the braking. The brakes on my mk4 VW Jetta TDI easily lasted more than four years[1], and even then only because corrosion killed them[2]. So I don't expect there to be much savings there. [1] The original clutch was changed at 450000 km. [2] The brake pads separated from the backing, even though they were only half-worn. Higher-quality pads might have prevented this, but the previous owner installed them.
bagacrap 7y ago
The regenerative braking only works for light braking. After that it's standard disc brakes. And I don't think flooring it off the line at every block through a residential area is a very safe idea, please don't encourage anyone.
- vinay427 7y ago
  It's sufficient for nearly all city braking in my experience, sometimes with a little extra planning required, and with the exception of certain emergency braking situations. The only time I generally had to use the brakes were to completely stop below around 4 mph (6 km/h). On a Tesla the brake pedal only activates the standard disc brakes so you know when you're using them.
aguyfromnb 7y ago
>They can also probably deliver more packages per hour with how fast electric cars can speed up and regeneratively decelerate through stop signs and delivery destinations. Is this sarcasm??? Do you honestly think that regenerative braking is harder/faster than brakes? Are you the type of person that is hard accelerating from every stop sign in the suburbs?
- mrep 7y ago
  No, harder and faster than coasting to a stop. Granted, full coasting to a stop really only makes sense for red lights but I'm assuming delivery drivers are doing some coasting when coming up to stop signs/yields which is what I do.
- p1mrx 7y ago
  > hard accelerating from every stop sign in the suburbs? If you want to deliver lots of packages without violating traffic laws, then rapid acceleration seems like obvious low-hanging fruit. If the vehicle is quiet and nobody's in the way, then what is the problem?
  - aguyfromnb 7y ago
    >then rapid acceleration seems like obvious low-hanging fruit It's energy intensive.
    - p1mrx 7y ago
      Acceleration is power intensive, not necessarily energy intensive. You need (1/2)mv^2 to reach a given velocity, regardless of how much time is spent. If rapid acceleration happens to be less efficient, then that's just an engineering problem.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

zaroth 7y ago

FYI, as of Q4 Tesla is now selling roughly the same number of Model 3 cars (worldwide) as the entire US commercial van market. The vans also have significantly lower ASP. The US passenger car market is orders of magnitude larger than the commercial van market. 500k units vs 18 million units per year. $9 billion versus $650 billion in total annual sales. https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2019-us-commercial-van-sales-figures-by-model/ https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2019-us-commercial-van-sales-f...

nexuist 7y ago
Well, this makes sense, because nobody buys a van every year. It would be more interesting to see the total amount of vans purchased in the country and how many of them are 2010 models, 2000 models, 1990 models, etc. If an electric van can reduce operating costs by several orders of magnitude, it might make sense for fleet owners to switch over ASAP. Especially if their competitors do it first.
- zaroth 7y ago
  > It would be more interesting to see the total amount of vans purchased in the country and how many of them are 2010 models, 2000 models, 1990 models, etc. What I quoted was annual new van sales. ~500k new vans purchased per year, growing at about 5% per year. A massive operating efficiency improvement might draw forward some new purchases / push existing vans into early retirement. Cost savings would definitely not be anywhere near an order of magnitude, but e.g. if TCO could go from $0.55 a mile conceivably to $0.40 a mile that would be very compelling. (Based on 15,000 miles a year, that would mean $8,250 goes to $6,000, saving $2,250) Note that TCO is including financing, taxes, insurance, depreciation, maintenance, repairs, and fuel. Fuel is about 30% of the TCO, so cutting fuel costs has a large effect. Depreciation on vans (after the first year) is pretty meager. Cratering resale value of ICE vans in the face of cheaper to operate EV vans will accelerate the transition to EV vans, but there’s still an adoption curve and an infrastructure challenge to face. The market share for EV vans is essentially 0 today.
- anpago 7y ago
  Although they might not buy regularly a lot of Vans especially now with the huge delivery to end users market. The van is the public's face of the company. A scruffy delivery person looking hassled as long as not rude or disrespectful to your goods and turn up when expected most don't care about. As they know otherwise they will end up paying more for delivery... But a smoke belching van will get people commenting from my experience. At least in the UK people don't care much for the reg number (age) of a companies vehicle. But will size up a companies entire environmental policy on the eco credentials of the final step.

bluedino 7y ago

On the other hand, commercial vans are used for, commercial purposes. They get a lot of miles put them on them. They will need enough range to drive 100-150 miles, sometimes towing a trailer or full of heavy equipment. Another thing to think about is if you have a van with four workers in it, you have to pay those 4 workers if they stop to recharge on the road. Lots of times you're working on jobsites that are under construction and might not have charging stations, or power at all.

mdorazio 7y ago
So what you're saying is a van with just 200 mile range would cover the large majority of use cases better than an equivalent ICE van that's more prone to needing maintenance and has less storage space in the same body volume.

konschubert 7y ago

This electric delivery van is being rolled out by DHL in Germany: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StreetScooter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StreetScooter

walshemj 7y ago

Back when I was younger all the UK Dairies used electric milk floats for deliveries direct to the consumer.

mhh__ 7y ago
They do still exist although I think my local one is a modified diesel van.