6 ms·

Will people even want to board these planes after it became clear how Boeing handled (botched) the development of this plane and how FAA insisted on keeping the

Will people even want to board these planes after it became clear how Boeing handled (botched) the development of this plane and how FAA insisted on keeping these planes up in the air (while stating they were perfectly safe as any other) until they absolutely couldn't (i.e. until other countries grounded it)? I wonder what the game plan is for getting these planes back in the air for carrying passengers. A small vocal minority will make a big stink about it and it will get amplified. Regular folk that don't know or care will join and it will become a huge shitfest when the day comes.

threatripper 7y ago
There are also other regulators in Europe and China who will look into this a bit more in detail instead of just rubber-stamping anything that the FAA approved.
- rossdavidh 7y ago
  I think this is the real issue for Boeing. The FAA will, eventually, certify the 737MAX, but it is not clear to me that European (or other) regulators will feel compelled to follow suit. If the 737MAX can only fly domestic flights, I'm not sure it is economically viable (literally not sure).
adwi 7y ago
No (n=1)
osivertsson 7y ago
People (not on HN etc.) will happily buy plane tickets on sale that happen to be flights on the 737 MAX once it is certified again. I still think the general public trusts the certification to be done right and that the plane will only be allowed to fly when experts agree it is safe. Which is why the stink from pilots and devs with experience from building similar systems is so important.
- wayoutthere 7y ago
  The bigger issue are business travelers -- who contribute approx. 60% of an airline's profitability through higher ticket prices and more frequent travel. We want to get back to see our families, and we're not very price-sensitive because the company is paying. No way in hell I'm flying on a MAX any time soon.
- jostmey 7y ago
  People may buy discounted plane tickets but most will not trust the certification, in my opinion. I'm avoiding any new boeing planes for my next flight
- matthewdgreen 7y ago
  My view is that when this certification process is over, the MAX will be the only Boeing plane that's received proper review and certification.
  - CydeWeys 7y ago
    What if it never receives certification? What if the way they mounted those big engines on a short plane proves to be a fatal design compromise?
    - dboreham 7y ago
      Then they get used for freight and military transport and we all fly Airbus.
      - CydeWeys 7y ago
        Really? Are the regulation requirements for non-passenger-service really that much more lax? A 737 MAX crashing into a city somewhere could easily kill a lot of people in addition to the two pilots onboard.
        dilap 7y ago
simias 7y ago
Maybe I'm just a very clueless passenger but I admit that I never ever check what kind of plane I'm in before I board it. I have a flight booked two weeks from now and I have no idea what kind of plane it's going to be in. Aren't most people the same? And if so, is the paranoia around the MAX big enough to change people's habits in the long run?
- amiga_500 7y ago
  I've never checked this before and I will not be putting my family on this model.
- ulfw 7y ago
  I check every plane. They're VERY different in terms of comfort. Maybe if you fly US domestic it doesn't matter. But for international flights aircraft type makes all the difference. (see e.g. Emirates horrible 777 vs it's very comfy A380)
  - dboreham 7y ago
    Where there's an obvious external difference it's easy to differentiate (number of engines in the case you cite). However most domestic US flights are on single aisle twins that all look alike.
    - rsynnott 7y ago
      You’ll probably notice a difference in comfort (especially noise) between a 737 and a320, say. And you can tell the difference between a 737 and 757 by the way the 757 is unreasonably long (see also, a321).
  - richardkmichael 7y ago
    I check as well. However, the airline can/will change the aircraft at their discretion. Last time I didn't find out until I arrived at the gate. If you don't want to fly on the changed aircraft, I'm not sure what recourse you have at that point. Of course, ultimately you can not board, but there may be penalties. If you had carry-on only, it might not bother them much. If you checked baggage, they need remove it, causing a delay. Although in principle, this would be "just as if" you missed the boarding call, I suspect if you tell them ahead of time (as in: "I'm not boarding this plane."), they'll try to persuade you there will be penalties. I don't know. There must be fine-print in the contract of carriage, since the ticket ("product") purchase indicates the aircraft. Perhaps one could verify the aircraft before check-in. If you don't receive a boarding pass, obviously there is no problem whatsoever, you just lose the flight unless you've paid top-dollar for a refundable ticket.
dmurray 7y ago
I expect the game plan involves a rebranding and a host of minor upgrades. There will still be people pointing out "this is the same plane under a different name", but Boeing will counter by calling those people conspiracy theorists and pointing to the hundred differences. Some experts will side with Boeing on this. Even a sophisticated consumer won't be able to tell reliably which of the "experts" is right.
imglorp 7y ago
I bet there's going to be a re-branding of the aircraft to "manage" perception. They already tried. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/jul/15/boeing-737-max-ordered-by-ryanair-undergoes-name-change https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/jul/15/boeing-737-...
- CydeWeys 7y ago
  It only works if it flies under the radar. I don't see that happening here. The second they rename the planes there's gonna be lots of articles written about it, and many people are gonna be thinking "the newest model 737s are unsafe", regardless of what that model is actually called.
  - rrmm 7y ago
    If they just drop the MAX branding, it'd immediately get lost amongst all the other 737 variants.
    - chopin 7y ago
      With the risk that people take none.
- kayfox 7y ago
  in 2018.
tzs 7y ago
As someone who has watched a lot of episodes of "Air Disasters" (AKA "Mayday", "Air Emergency", or "Air Crash Investigations" in various places) [1], The Weather Channel's "Why Planes Crash" [2], and National Geographic's "Seconds from Disaster" [3] which had a few episodes involving air disasters, getting me on a 737 Max after they release a fix wouldn't require any more force or involve any more kicking and screaming and threats of violence than getting me on any other modern airliner. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayday_(Canadian_TV_series) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayday_(Canadian_TV_series) [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Planes_Crash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Planes_Crash [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seconds_from_Disaster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seconds_from_Disaster
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
mnm1 7y ago
If kayak etc. don't offer the option to filter by plane type now, they will or a competitor will. While plane crashes have happened in the past, I can't remember one that was so clearly gross negligence on the part of the manufacturer. Not everyone will forget that Boeing stopped caring about the lives of their passengers by putting them into the hands of shit software driven by a single point of failure. The simplest and only explanation in this case is malice. No engineering team or organization could possibly be this dumb. I think that alone will make people remember it better than airplane accidents. These crashes were not accidents.

threatripper 7y ago

There are also other regulators in Europe and China who will look into this a bit more in detail instead of just rubber-stamping anything that the FAA approved.

rossdavidh 7y ago
I think this is the real issue for Boeing. The FAA will, eventually, certify the 737MAX, but it is not clear to me that European (or other) regulators will feel compelled to follow suit. If the 737MAX can only fly domestic flights, I'm not sure it is economically viable (literally not sure).

adwi 7y ago

No (n=1)

osivertsson 7y ago

People (not on HN etc.) will happily buy plane tickets on sale that happen to be flights on the 737 MAX once it is certified again. I still think the general public trusts the certification to be done right and that the plane will only be allowed to fly when experts agree it is safe. Which is why the stink from pilots and devs with experience from building similar systems is so important.

wayoutthere 7y ago
The bigger issue are business travelers -- who contribute approx. 60% of an airline's profitability through higher ticket prices and more frequent travel. We want to get back to see our families, and we're not very price-sensitive because the company is paying. No way in hell I'm flying on a MAX any time soon.
jostmey 7y ago
People may buy discounted plane tickets but most will not trust the certification, in my opinion. I'm avoiding any new boeing planes for my next flight
matthewdgreen 7y ago
My view is that when this certification process is over, the MAX will be the only Boeing plane that's received proper review and certification.
- CydeWeys 7y ago
  What if it never receives certification? What if the way they mounted those big engines on a short plane proves to be a fatal design compromise?
  - dboreham 7y ago
    Then they get used for freight and military transport and we all fly Airbus.
    - CydeWeys 7y ago
      Really? Are the regulation requirements for non-passenger-service really that much more lax? A 737 MAX crashing into a city somewhere could easily kill a lot of people in addition to the two pilots onboard.
      - dilap 7y ago

simias 7y ago

Maybe I'm just a very clueless passenger but I admit that I never ever check what kind of plane I'm in before I board it. I have a flight booked two weeks from now and I have no idea what kind of plane it's going to be in. Aren't most people the same? And if so, is the paranoia around the MAX big enough to change people's habits in the long run?

amiga_500 7y ago
I've never checked this before and I will not be putting my family on this model.
ulfw 7y ago
I check every plane. They're VERY different in terms of comfort. Maybe if you fly US domestic it doesn't matter. But for international flights aircraft type makes all the difference. (see e.g. Emirates horrible 777 vs it's very comfy A380)
- dboreham 7y ago
  Where there's an obvious external difference it's easy to differentiate (number of engines in the case you cite). However most domestic US flights are on single aisle twins that all look alike.
  - rsynnott 7y ago
    You’ll probably notice a difference in comfort (especially noise) between a 737 and a320, say. And you can tell the difference between a 737 and 757 by the way the 757 is unreasonably long (see also, a321).
- richardkmichael 7y ago
  I check as well. However, the airline can/will change the aircraft at their discretion. Last time I didn't find out until I arrived at the gate. If you don't want to fly on the changed aircraft, I'm not sure what recourse you have at that point. Of course, ultimately you can not board, but there may be penalties. If you had carry-on only, it might not bother them much. If you checked baggage, they need remove it, causing a delay. Although in principle, this would be "just as if" you missed the boarding call, I suspect if you tell them ahead of time (as in: "I'm not boarding this plane."), they'll try to persuade you there will be penalties. I don't know. There must be fine-print in the contract of carriage, since the ticket ("product") purchase indicates the aircraft. Perhaps one could verify the aircraft before check-in. If you don't receive a boarding pass, obviously there is no problem whatsoever, you just lose the flight unless you've paid top-dollar for a refundable ticket.

dmurray 7y ago

I expect the game plan involves a rebranding and a host of minor upgrades. There will still be people pointing out "this is the same plane under a different name", but Boeing will counter by calling those people conspiracy theorists and pointing to the hundred differences. Some experts will side with Boeing on this. Even a sophisticated consumer won't be able to tell reliably which of the "experts" is right.

imglorp 7y ago

I bet there's going to be a re-branding of the aircraft to "manage" perception. They already tried. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/jul/15/boeing-737-max-ordered-by-ryanair-undergoes-name-change https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/jul/15/boeing-737-...

CydeWeys 7y ago
It only works if it flies under the radar. I don't see that happening here. The second they rename the planes there's gonna be lots of articles written about it, and many people are gonna be thinking "the newest model 737s are unsafe", regardless of what that model is actually called.
- rrmm 7y ago
  If they just drop the MAX branding, it'd immediately get lost amongst all the other 737 variants.
  - chopin 7y ago
    With the risk that people take none.
kayfox 7y ago
in 2018.

tzs 7y ago

As someone who has watched a lot of episodes of "Air Disasters" (AKA "Mayday", "Air Emergency", or "Air Crash Investigations" in various places) [1], The Weather Channel's "Why Planes Crash" [2], and National Geographic's "Seconds from Disaster" [3] which had a few episodes involving air disasters, getting me on a 737 Max after they release a fix wouldn't require any more force or involve any more kicking and screaming and threats of violence than getting me on any other modern airliner. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayday_(Canadian_TV_series) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayday_(Canadian_TV_series) [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Planes_Crash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Planes_Crash [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seconds_from_Disaster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seconds_from_Disaster

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

mnm1 7y ago

If kayak etc. don't offer the option to filter by plane type now, they will or a competitor will. While plane crashes have happened in the past, I can't remember one that was so clearly gross negligence on the part of the manufacturer. Not everyone will forget that Boeing stopped caring about the lives of their passengers by putting them into the hands of shit software driven by a single point of failure. The simplest and only explanation in this case is malice. No engineering team or organization could possibly be this dumb. I think that alone will make people remember it better than airplane accidents. These crashes were not accidents.