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"real world decisions are more complicated" This argument is dismissive without actually addressing the argument. It's literally a logical fallacy called 'app

"real world decisions are more complicated" This argument is dismissive without actually addressing the argument. It's literally a logical fallacy called 'appeal to the stone'. Where's the nuance?

krapp 7y ago
The nuance is that Ben Franklin was warning against the temporary safety of personal liberty versus the freedom provided by a more robust Federal security apparatus (specifically against native Americans.) He wasn't warning that trust in government is an act of cowardice or fool's errand, rather that government is often necessary as a force multiplier to safeguard individual liberties against an opposing force multiplier.
- nickthemagicman 7y ago
  The fact that you used Native Americans in your example is not the best support for your argument that it's not a fools errand to trust the government. The difference between who you're being made 'safe' from and who is being repressed is merely a labeling issue, and its the same forces that do the repression that keep the safety. You could be the one being protected one one day, then the next day, you're the 'Native American' and the one others need safety from, because a label changed. Freedom fighter or a terrorist? Speaking up for what you believe or spouting anti-government propaganda? That concept is what the quote is conveying. It's a very powerful and important quote that applies to numerous situations. That's why it's a fricking timeless quote. Insane this isn't agreed upon by everyone.
skybrian 7y ago
To expand it a little bit: What does "deserve" mean in this slogan? Are people who made a strategic mistake undeserving of fair treatment? This sounds a lot like the con artist's rationale that his victims had it coming because they were stupid. Also, which liberties are considered essential? What kind of safety are we talking about? If a mugger threatens you maybe you should cooperate? Should people on the losing side of a war always fight to the end? If you think the police are corrupt and you won't get a fair trial, should you allow yourself to be arrested? I don't believe there is a simple slogan that tells you what to do in all situations.

"real world decisions are more complicated" This argument is dismissive without actually addressing the argument. It's literally a logical fallacy called 'appeal to the stone'. Where's the nuance?

krapp 7y ago

The nuance is that Ben Franklin was warning against the temporary safety of personal liberty versus the freedom provided by a more robust Federal security apparatus (specifically against native Americans.) He wasn't warning that trust in government is an act of cowardice or fool's errand, rather that government is often necessary as a force multiplier to safeguard individual liberties against an opposing force multiplier.

nickthemagicman 7y ago
The fact that you used Native Americans in your example is not the best support for your argument that it's not a fools errand to trust the government. The difference between who you're being made 'safe' from and who is being repressed is merely a labeling issue, and its the same forces that do the repression that keep the safety. You could be the one being protected one one day, then the next day, you're the 'Native American' and the one others need safety from, because a label changed. Freedom fighter or a terrorist? Speaking up for what you believe or spouting anti-government propaganda? That concept is what the quote is conveying. It's a very powerful and important quote that applies to numerous situations. That's why it's a fricking timeless quote. Insane this isn't agreed upon by everyone.

skybrian 7y ago

To expand it a little bit: What does "deserve" mean in this slogan? Are people who made a strategic mistake undeserving of fair treatment? This sounds a lot like the con artist's rationale that his victims had it coming because they were stupid. Also, which liberties are considered essential? What kind of safety are we talking about? If a mugger threatens you maybe you should cooperate? Should people on the losing side of a war always fight to the end? If you think the police are corrupt and you won't get a fair trial, should you allow yourself to be arrested? I don't believe there is a simple slogan that tells you what to do in all situations.