17 ms·

AFAIK, the car companies bought up the transit lines and deliberately ran them into the ground.

selectodude 7y ago
The car companies bought the already failed transit lines, sold them for scrap, and then sold new busses. The city was already transitioning to busses and the trams needed replacement regardless. One could say that the auto companies hastened their demise, but it wasn't by very long.
- JoeAltmaier 7y ago
  They failed because the car companies worked with (i.e. paid) local town councils to restrict track placement, restrict time-of-day allowed for transit traffic, and generally strangle their service model. Tightened the noose until they failed. So yes, it was car companies that killed them.
  - selectodude 7y ago
    That's a myth. Streetcars were never profitable, and were built as a way to get to new development that the streetcar owners were building. Once there was no land left to develop in Southern California, the streetcars became a cost center. Once the interstate highway system was built with taxpayer money and the great depression ended giving everybody enough money to buy their own cars, it was simply a matter of time.
    - JoeAltmaier 7y ago
      They were convicted of collusion and fined? Some research shows they (GM etc) were convicted of conspiracy to fix prices in the bus-transit industry. The streetcar conspiracy was tried and dismissed(?) So, no smoking gun I guess.
      - selectodude 7y ago
        I'm not saying that GM wasn't up to some sketchy shit, they almost certainly were. However it's not as if there would be a comprehensive red car system in 2020 if not for GM. The government did more to kill public transportation in the US than GM could have ever dreamed of.
        dragonwriter 7y ago
        > The government did more to kill public transportation in the US than GM could have ever dreamed of. And who was lobbying the government for that?
        selectodude 7y ago
        Nobody. The assault began on public transportation began before GM even existed.
        dllthomas 7y ago
        With regards to the Red Car, your claim doesn't seem to match the timeline.
        rayiner 7y ago
        Nobody had to lobby. I don’t think transit advocates realize how amazing car travel was back in the day. When I first moved to DC in 1989, there was no traffic. You could zip from Vienna to Foggy Bottom in 25 minutes. Even if you live in one of the apartments by the Vienna metro, it was almost an hour by Metro. If you had to take a bus, it was well over an hour. Super fast, point to point trips are amazing. It’s still that way in much of the country.
        dragonwriter 7y ago
        > Nobody had to lobby. The idea that transport policy wasn't shaped by any lobbying is ludicrous. > I don’t think transit advocates realize how amazing car travel was back in the day. That doesn't mean the shape of policy that leveraged that popularity wasn't shaped by lobbying by those with a concentrated interest that the legislation would advance leveraging the general popularity of car travel. In fact, having something naturally popular (whether it's “car travel” or “not dying in a terrorist attack”) to leverage as a basis increases, rather thank reduces, the intensity of lobbying to gain private benefit by exploiting that sentiment.
classichasclass 7y ago
As loosely dramatized in Who Framed Roger Rabbit? . The tire companies were involved as well.
Aloha 7y ago
The PE lines were money losers before before they were bought, and the final shutdown was under the ownership of the predecessor to the MTA.

The car companies bought the already failed transit lines, sold them for scrap, and then sold new busses. The city was already transitioning to busses and the trams needed replacement regardless. One could say that the auto companies hastened their demise, but it wasn't by very long.

JoeAltmaier 7y ago
They failed because the car companies worked with (i.e. paid) local town councils to restrict track placement, restrict time-of-day allowed for transit traffic, and generally strangle their service model. Tightened the noose until they failed. So yes, it was car companies that killed them.
- selectodude 7y ago
  That's a myth. Streetcars were never profitable, and were built as a way to get to new development that the streetcar owners were building. Once there was no land left to develop in Southern California, the streetcars became a cost center. Once the interstate highway system was built with taxpayer money and the great depression ended giving everybody enough money to buy their own cars, it was simply a matter of time.
  - JoeAltmaier 7y ago
    They were convicted of collusion and fined? Some research shows they (GM etc) were convicted of conspiracy to fix prices in the bus-transit industry. The streetcar conspiracy was tried and dismissed(?) So, no smoking gun I guess.
    - selectodude 7y ago
      I'm not saying that GM wasn't up to some sketchy shit, they almost certainly were. However it's not as if there would be a comprehensive red car system in 2020 if not for GM. The government did more to kill public transportation in the US than GM could have ever dreamed of.
      - dragonwriter 7y ago
        > The government did more to kill public transportation in the US than GM could have ever dreamed of. And who was lobbying the government for that?
        selectodude 7y ago
        Nobody. The assault began on public transportation began before GM even existed.
        dllthomas 7y ago
        With regards to the Red Car, your claim doesn't seem to match the timeline.
        rayiner 7y ago
        Nobody had to lobby. I don’t think transit advocates realize how amazing car travel was back in the day. When I first moved to DC in 1989, there was no traffic. You could zip from Vienna to Foggy Bottom in 25 minutes. Even if you live in one of the apartments by the Vienna metro, it was almost an hour by Metro. If you had to take a bus, it was well over an hour. Super fast, point to point trips are amazing. It’s still that way in much of the country.
        dragonwriter 7y ago
        > Nobody had to lobby. The idea that transport policy wasn't shaped by any lobbying is ludicrous. > I don’t think transit advocates realize how amazing car travel was back in the day. That doesn't mean the shape of policy that leveraged that popularity wasn't shaped by lobbying by those with a concentrated interest that the legislation would advance leveraging the general popularity of car travel. In fact, having something naturally popular (whether it's “car travel” or “not dying in a terrorist attack”) to leverage as a basis increases, rather thank reduces, the intensity of lobbying to gain private benefit by exploiting that sentiment.

classichasclass 7y ago

As loosely dramatized in Who Framed Roger Rabbit? . The tire companies were involved as well.

Aloha 7y ago

The PE lines were money losers before before they were bought, and the final shutdown was under the ownership of the predecessor to the MTA.