4 ms·

No - what is going on is that feminists point to statistics of dads not staying home, then claim it is because dads "don't step up to help in the home". That's

No - what is going on is that feminists point to statistics of dads not staying home, then claim it is because dads "don't step up to help in the home". That's a feminist lie - several, actually. First lie: it is a burden to take care of your kids. Second lie: dads are lazy slobs oppressing the mothers to do all the awful work, while they chill in their comfy careers. It's not even a question of "I can't help you with that because of your privilege", it is that the question is not even the question. Of course there are dads who wouldn't like to stay at home, or who don't even consider it because of societal traditions. Likewise mothers who don't want to stay home (less often). Overall, it is a question of money (privilege), and a private matter between the parents.

RonanTheGrey 7y ago
This comment is helpful and relevant: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22080563 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22080563 While women experience a "parent penalty", the one men would/do experience is much more severe because rather than being seen as necessary or expected, it is a character judgement: you chose to walk away and didn't have to so you have demonstrated you are wiling to be a traitor. (fair or not, this is the judgment). If one is to advocate for men "stepping up", one must at least understand what they are asking. "What, just step in front of the cavalry charge, they'll go around you don't worry you're just chicken hehe checkmate". And while it might be unpopular to suggest this is so, I agree with the parent poster that the first thing that seems to get lost in these discussions is that taking care of children is not a burden. Work, yes, hard, yes, a burden? Only if you didn't want them in the first place. I say this as a father of 2 who sometimes sacrifices work to take care of my kids. It's a privilege the days I do so and I am currently undertaking a Herculean effort to modify the shape of my career and my income in order to do so more often because I love them and want them brought up right instead of leaving them in the hands of some daycare. Burden? WTF? And it seems to be an absurd argument: "Caring for the children is a burden that holds back women therefore men should do it so women can work." Wait what? How does that fix anything? This is why I largely stay out of these discussions. It seems to be impossible for them ultimately to be realized as nuanced. This problem is hard and a balanced, equitable solution is multifaceted. To state the solution as "well men should just...." in any context whatsoever does a disservice to the discussion.
nl 7y ago
As someone with kids I can verify it's a huge amount of work taking care of them! It's incredibly hard work, by far the hardest thing I've ever done. If you want to call that a burden then so be it. For you to call that a feminist lie makes it sound more like you are trying to make this an ideological argument rather than anything based on experience. All your arguments are based on some strawman argument if feminism. Why do you think mothers "less often" don't want to stay home?
- codingmess 7y ago
  It's hard work, but not a burden. People have kids because they like having them. Keeping with the Ferrari analogy, cleaning your Ferrari is also hard work, but nobody would pity you for the "burden" or having to clean your Ferrari. Not sure if you are aware, but if you don't like them anymore, there are ways to get rid of them. You could send them to a boarding school (or at least to a school where they have to stay at school all day), hire a nanny, or give them up for adoption, for example. If your parents are still alive, you could ask them to take over, too. As for feminism, the whole discussion only exists because of feminism. Therefore, yes, it is about feminism.
  - nl 7y ago
    As for feminism, the whole discussion only exists because of feminism. Therefore, yes, it is about feminism. You are presenting an caricature of feminism, and that seems to be all you are able to argue against.
    - codingmess 7y ago
      In what way do you think I present a caricature of feminism? Where would "non-caricature" feminism differ from my presentation?
      - dang 7y ago
        Please don't use HN for ideological battle, regardless of which ideology you're for or against. It already looks like you're using HN primarily for that, and we ban such accounts, as the site guidelines say. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

RonanTheGrey 7y ago

This comment is helpful and relevant: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22080563 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22080563 While women experience a "parent penalty", the one men would/do experience is much more severe because rather than being seen as necessary or expected, it is a character judgement: you chose to walk away and didn't have to so you have demonstrated you are wiling to be a traitor. (fair or not, this is the judgment). If one is to advocate for men "stepping up", one must at least understand what they are asking. "What, just step in front of the cavalry charge, they'll go around you don't worry you're just chicken hehe checkmate". And while it might be unpopular to suggest this is so, I agree with the parent poster that the first thing that seems to get lost in these discussions is that taking care of children is not a burden. Work, yes, hard, yes, a burden? Only if you didn't want them in the first place. I say this as a father of 2 who sometimes sacrifices work to take care of my kids. It's a privilege the days I do so and I am currently undertaking a Herculean effort to modify the shape of my career and my income in order to do so more often because I love them and want them brought up right instead of leaving them in the hands of some daycare. Burden? WTF? And it seems to be an absurd argument: "Caring for the children is a burden that holds back women therefore men should do it so women can work." Wait what? How does that fix anything? This is why I largely stay out of these discussions. It seems to be impossible for them ultimately to be realized as nuanced. This problem is hard and a balanced, equitable solution is multifaceted. To state the solution as "well men should just...." in any context whatsoever does a disservice to the discussion.

nl 7y ago

As someone with kids I can verify it's a huge amount of work taking care of them! It's incredibly hard work, by far the hardest thing I've ever done. If you want to call that a burden then so be it. For you to call that a feminist lie makes it sound more like you are trying to make this an ideological argument rather than anything based on experience. All your arguments are based on some strawman argument if feminism. Why do you think mothers "less often" don't want to stay home?

codingmess 7y ago
It's hard work, but not a burden. People have kids because they like having them. Keeping with the Ferrari analogy, cleaning your Ferrari is also hard work, but nobody would pity you for the "burden" or having to clean your Ferrari. Not sure if you are aware, but if you don't like them anymore, there are ways to get rid of them. You could send them to a boarding school (or at least to a school where they have to stay at school all day), hire a nanny, or give them up for adoption, for example. If your parents are still alive, you could ask them to take over, too. As for feminism, the whole discussion only exists because of feminism. Therefore, yes, it is about feminism.
- nl 7y ago
  As for feminism, the whole discussion only exists because of feminism. Therefore, yes, it is about feminism. You are presenting an caricature of feminism, and that seems to be all you are able to argue against.
  - codingmess 7y ago
    In what way do you think I present a caricature of feminism? Where would "non-caricature" feminism differ from my presentation?
    - dang 7y ago
      Please don't use HN for ideological battle, regardless of which ideology you're for or against. It already looks like you're using HN primarily for that, and we ban such accounts, as the site guidelines say. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html