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"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -Ben Franklin No one likes to say this

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -Ben Franklin No one likes to say this but your average citizen is either not smart enough or doesn't care enough to understand statistics... so sensationalism wins.

skybrian 7y ago
Ben Franklin would have done well on Twitter, but this is in essence a snappy Revolution War slogan, nothing more. It makes a false binary distinction and real world decisions are more complicated.
- krapp 7y ago
  >Ben Franklin would have done well on Twitter, but this is in essence a snappy Revolution War slogan, nothing more. It actually isn't, it's a snippet of a greater dialogue with often taken out of context in order to to infer precisely the opposite meaning of what was intended[0,1]. Ben Franklin understood the nuance and complexity of the real world better than many of the libertarians and ancaps who quote him.. [0]https://techcrunch.com/2014/02/14/how-the-world-butchered-benjamin-franklins-quote-on-liberty-vs-security/ https://techcrunch.com/2014/02/14/how-the-world-butchered-be... [1]https://www.npr.org/2015/03/02/390245038/ben-franklins-famous-liberty-safety-quote-lost-its-context-in-21st-century https://www.npr.org/2015/03/02/390245038/ben-franklins-famou...
  - skybrian 7y ago
    Thanks for the correction! But he also wasn't above just making stuff up to increase business. Maybe the funniest one was predicting and then faking a competing printer's death, and then claiming that someone was pretending to be him. Apparently this increased circulation for both publishers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_Leeds https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_Leeds https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/62668/6-ben-franklins-greatest-hoaxes-and-pranks https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/62668/6-ben-franklins-gr...
  - nickthemagicman 7y ago
    Those articles do a poor job of discrediting the ideas of the actual quote. They say that the origin is not what people think? Many of the founding fathers had slaves. Doesn't make the constitution any less valid. Mel Gibson is a terrible person but Braveheart is an amazing movie. The origin of something does not discredit its ideas.
- nickthemagicman 7y ago
  "real world decisions are more complicated" This argument is dismissive without actually addressing the argument. It's literally a logical fallacy called 'appeal to the stone'. Where's the nuance?
  - krapp 7y ago
    The nuance is that Ben Franklin was warning against the temporary safety of personal liberty versus the freedom provided by a more robust Federal security apparatus (specifically against native Americans.) He wasn't warning that trust in government is an act of cowardice or fool's errand, rather that government is often necessary as a force multiplier to safeguard individual liberties against an opposing force multiplier.
    - nickthemagicman 7y ago
      The fact that you used Native Americans in your example is not the best support for your argument that it's not a fools errand to trust the government. The difference between who you're being made 'safe' from and who is being repressed is merely a labeling issue, and its the same forces that do the repression that keep the safety. You could be the one being protected one one day, then the next day, you're the 'Native American' and the one others need safety from, because a label changed. Freedom fighter or a terrorist? Speaking up for what you believe or spouting anti-government propaganda? That concept is what the quote is conveying. It's a very powerful and important quote that applies to numerous situations. That's why it's a fricking timeless quote. Insane this isn't agreed upon by everyone.
  - skybrian 7y ago
    To expand it a little bit: What does "deserve" mean in this slogan? Are people who made a strategic mistake undeserving of fair treatment? This sounds a lot like the con artist's rationale that his victims had it coming because they were stupid. Also, which liberties are considered essential? What kind of safety are we talking about? If a mugger threatens you maybe you should cooperate? Should people on the losing side of a war always fight to the end? If you think the police are corrupt and you won't get a fair trial, should you allow yourself to be arrested? I don't believe there is a simple slogan that tells you what to do in all situations.

skybrian 7y ago

Ben Franklin would have done well on Twitter, but this is in essence a snappy Revolution War slogan, nothing more. It makes a false binary distinction and real world decisions are more complicated.

krapp 7y ago
>Ben Franklin would have done well on Twitter, but this is in essence a snappy Revolution War slogan, nothing more. It actually isn't, it's a snippet of a greater dialogue with often taken out of context in order to to infer precisely the opposite meaning of what was intended[0,1]. Ben Franklin understood the nuance and complexity of the real world better than many of the libertarians and ancaps who quote him.. [0]https://techcrunch.com/2014/02/14/how-the-world-butchered-benjamin-franklins-quote-on-liberty-vs-security/ https://techcrunch.com/2014/02/14/how-the-world-butchered-be... [1]https://www.npr.org/2015/03/02/390245038/ben-franklins-famous-liberty-safety-quote-lost-its-context-in-21st-century https://www.npr.org/2015/03/02/390245038/ben-franklins-famou...
- skybrian 7y ago
  Thanks for the correction! But he also wasn't above just making stuff up to increase business. Maybe the funniest one was predicting and then faking a competing printer's death, and then claiming that someone was pretending to be him. Apparently this increased circulation for both publishers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_Leeds https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_Leeds https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/62668/6-ben-franklins-greatest-hoaxes-and-pranks https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/62668/6-ben-franklins-gr...
- nickthemagicman 7y ago
  Those articles do a poor job of discrediting the ideas of the actual quote. They say that the origin is not what people think? Many of the founding fathers had slaves. Doesn't make the constitution any less valid. Mel Gibson is a terrible person but Braveheart is an amazing movie. The origin of something does not discredit its ideas.
nickthemagicman 7y ago
"real world decisions are more complicated" This argument is dismissive without actually addressing the argument. It's literally a logical fallacy called 'appeal to the stone'. Where's the nuance?
- krapp 7y ago
  The nuance is that Ben Franklin was warning against the temporary safety of personal liberty versus the freedom provided by a more robust Federal security apparatus (specifically against native Americans.) He wasn't warning that trust in government is an act of cowardice or fool's errand, rather that government is often necessary as a force multiplier to safeguard individual liberties against an opposing force multiplier.
  - nickthemagicman 7y ago
    The fact that you used Native Americans in your example is not the best support for your argument that it's not a fools errand to trust the government. The difference between who you're being made 'safe' from and who is being repressed is merely a labeling issue, and its the same forces that do the repression that keep the safety. You could be the one being protected one one day, then the next day, you're the 'Native American' and the one others need safety from, because a label changed. Freedom fighter or a terrorist? Speaking up for what you believe or spouting anti-government propaganda? That concept is what the quote is conveying. It's a very powerful and important quote that applies to numerous situations. That's why it's a fricking timeless quote. Insane this isn't agreed upon by everyone.
- skybrian 7y ago
  To expand it a little bit: What does "deserve" mean in this slogan? Are people who made a strategic mistake undeserving of fair treatment? This sounds a lot like the con artist's rationale that his victims had it coming because they were stupid. Also, which liberties are considered essential? What kind of safety are we talking about? If a mugger threatens you maybe you should cooperate? Should people on the losing side of a war always fight to the end? If you think the police are corrupt and you won't get a fair trial, should you allow yourself to be arrested? I don't believe there is a simple slogan that tells you what to do in all situations.