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Huh. I did maybe a couple decades of applied nihilism, as presented by Landmark Education. It helped me a lot, given that I'm bipolar and prone to pessimism an

Huh. I did maybe a couple decades of applied nihilism, as presented by Landmark Education. It helped me a lot, given that I'm bipolar and prone to pessimism and depression. So this makes sense to me: > If, as I suggested earlier, nihilism and pessimism are opposites, then nihilism is actually much closer to optimism. But not this: > Such a lack of awareness is the point of nihilism, as nihilism is all about hiding from despair rather than dwelling on it. As Landmark taught it, it's not so much hiding from despair as cultivating the awareness that despair is an illusion. That is, despair isn't about what happened. It's about our story about what happened. And our stories by default just reflect our programming. This does, however, but it's too ambiguous: > But the nihilist has feelings. It’s just that what the nihilist has feelings for is itself nothing. It's not that it's "nothing", exactly. It's that it's indeterminate. By default, it's however we've been programmed. But it can be whatever we choose freely.

fernly 7y ago
That would be https://www.landmarkworldwide.com/ https://www.landmarkworldwide.com/ ? I'd never heard of it/them. It asserts "designed to bring about positive, permanent shifts in the quality of your life—in just three days", but you mention "couple decades". Comment?
- mirimir 7y ago
  Yes, that's them. And yes, the Forum lasts three days. But there are many other courses. Most lasted just one weekend. Some were one weekend a month for maybe six months. One lasted almost a week (Six Day). And for much of that time, I was taking seminars that met more or less weekly. Those are often focused on enrolling everyone you know in Landmark. But leaders have considerable discretion, and some of them focus far more on content. The prices are all reasonable. The Wisdom Courses are considerably more expensive, but also more fun.[0] 0) https://www.landmarkworldwide.com/advanced-programs/wisdom-courses https://www.landmarkworldwide.com/advanced-programs/wisdom-c...
oarabbus_ 7y ago
What is "applied nihilism"? I've not heard this term before.
- mirimir 7y ago
  I made it up :) Also, I don't recall anything explicit about Landmark and nihilism. It's just my opinion.
thrwaway69 7y ago
Personally, I see nihilism as part of strategic deployment like any other philosophical position. If nothing has inherent meaning then you are the one who has power to give meaning to things. You can avoid giving meaning to mishaps, mistakes, past, nasty comments and anxiety while cherishing and making other things more meaningful (to yourself). Nihilism opens door to countering positions such as above. By using it, one can either accept life without meaning and move on or they can counter it with different position that doesn't bind them from construction of their own structure. off topic > It helped me a lot, given that I'm bipolar I am curious how do you trust yourself dealing with that. In a similar position, I find it a bit complicated to retain trust in myself (messy part is I have trauma related to trusting others as well). The feeling of being able to do anything devolving into sleeping like a rotten piece of meat within a few months. When I noticed the pattern, I had to stop thinking anything ambitious long term. Currently, I have a few yes/no questions that highly depend on ny emotional and psychological state. I ask myself when I am unsure whether it's a good phase or bad phase. When am I myself? Is it when I can be high or low? Or somewhere between combining both. Obviously, I can ignore the emotions and look at things objectively but then, I would start disagreeing with lot of people including doctors and become more 'robot' like. I start thinking about incentives, motive, biases, biological coding and what not to rationalize 'something' but that 'something' ultimately depends on my emotional underlying. The argument proposed are hard to deny unless someone has an irrational absolute stance originating from a position of faith or bias they are unaware of.(I am not saying things directly, I know) Aa for drugs (they don't really work that much for me), do you not see yourself as intoxicated though? If someone was under the effect of alcohol, would you say that someone has control or actually thinking by their own? Comparing medical drugs to alcohol might be a bit stretched but some of what I took in the past was relatively similar in effects after a bit of research. What if you had to take drugs forever to retain that person? Who is judging what is ultimately good for you?
- brazzy 7y ago
  >If nothing has inherent meaning then you are the one who has power to give meaning to things. You can avoid giving meaning to mishaps, mistakes, past, nasty comments and anxiety while cherishing and making other things more meaningful (to yourself). That's one outlook on nihilism As I understand it, that is, in fact, existentialism, not nihilism.
mindgam3 7y ago
PSA, Landmark Forum was banned as a cult in France after the release of an investigative documentary [0] which they tried vigorously to suppress. The group is a magnet for vulnerable people who respond to authoritarian style leadership and coercive psychological techniques including public shaming and gaslighting. They strongly discourage participants from taking notes. Anyone with a history of trauma, abuse or adverse childhood experiences (ACEs) should know that attending this kind of group can cause severe psychological harm. There is a way to do deep personal transformation safely, but this group isn’t it. 0. https://wikileaks.org/wiki/Suppressed_French_documentary_on_Landmark_Forum_cult,_transcript,_24_May_2004 https://wikileaks.org/wiki/Suppressed_French_documentary_on_...
- mirimir 7y ago
  Some do claim that it's a cult. But that's not my experience. Course leaders are generally highly charismatic, but are not typically authoritarian. There is a heavy emphasis on participants sharing experience with the group, and being coached to see their machinery. But it's a stretch to call that "public shaming and gaslighting". However, people are sometimes very attached to their interpretations, and it can get very intense. But you can leave, at any time. And if you leave early enough, they'll refund your payment. Edit: This is representative, based on my experience: https://praxis.fortelabs.co/a-skeptic-goes-to-the-landmark-forum-9eb966883103/ https://praxis.fortelabs.co/a-skeptic-goes-to-the-landmark-f...
  - 1propionyl 7y ago
    I don't know anything about this particular case, but superficially what you're describing is not atypical of well-established cults, rather it is typical. The authoritarianism increases as one moves up levels and more "secrets" are revealed. At the ground floor, it's welcoming and communal, but as you are further inculcated the number of "secrets" or "mysteries" revealed, the amount of potential personal exposure (read: blackmail and/or punishment for treachery) and the amount of authoritarianism rises steeply.
    - mirimir 7y ago

fernly 7y ago

That would be https://www.landmarkworldwide.com/ https://www.landmarkworldwide.com/ ? I'd never heard of it/them. It asserts "designed to bring about positive, permanent shifts in the quality of your life—in just three days", but you mention "couple decades". Comment?

mirimir 7y ago
Yes, that's them. And yes, the Forum lasts three days. But there are many other courses. Most lasted just one weekend. Some were one weekend a month for maybe six months. One lasted almost a week (Six Day). And for much of that time, I was taking seminars that met more or less weekly. Those are often focused on enrolling everyone you know in Landmark. But leaders have considerable discretion, and some of them focus far more on content. The prices are all reasonable. The Wisdom Courses are considerably more expensive, but also more fun.[0] 0) https://www.landmarkworldwide.com/advanced-programs/wisdom-courses https://www.landmarkworldwide.com/advanced-programs/wisdom-c...

oarabbus_ 7y ago

What is "applied nihilism"? I've not heard this term before.

mirimir 7y ago
I made it up :) Also, I don't recall anything explicit about Landmark and nihilism. It's just my opinion.

thrwaway69 7y ago

Personally, I see nihilism as part of strategic deployment like any other philosophical position. If nothing has inherent meaning then you are the one who has power to give meaning to things. You can avoid giving meaning to mishaps, mistakes, past, nasty comments and anxiety while cherishing and making other things more meaningful (to yourself). Nihilism opens door to countering positions such as above. By using it, one can either accept life without meaning and move on or they can counter it with different position that doesn't bind them from construction of their own structure. off topic > It helped me a lot, given that I'm bipolar I am curious how do you trust yourself dealing with that. In a similar position, I find it a bit complicated to retain trust in myself (messy part is I have trauma related to trusting others as well). The feeling of being able to do anything devolving into sleeping like a rotten piece of meat within a few months. When I noticed the pattern, I had to stop thinking anything ambitious long term. Currently, I have a few yes/no questions that highly depend on ny emotional and psychological state. I ask myself when I am unsure whether it's a good phase or bad phase. When am I myself? Is it when I can be high or low? Or somewhere between combining both. Obviously, I can ignore the emotions and look at things objectively but then, I would start disagreeing with lot of people including doctors and become more 'robot' like. I start thinking about incentives, motive, biases, biological coding and what not to rationalize 'something' but that 'something' ultimately depends on my emotional underlying. The argument proposed are hard to deny unless someone has an irrational absolute stance originating from a position of faith or bias they are unaware of.(I am not saying things directly, I know) Aa for drugs (they don't really work that much for me), do you not see yourself as intoxicated though? If someone was under the effect of alcohol, would you say that someone has control or actually thinking by their own? Comparing medical drugs to alcohol might be a bit stretched but some of what I took in the past was relatively similar in effects after a bit of research. What if you had to take drugs forever to retain that person? Who is judging what is ultimately good for you?

brazzy 7y ago
>If nothing has inherent meaning then you are the one who has power to give meaning to things. You can avoid giving meaning to mishaps, mistakes, past, nasty comments and anxiety while cherishing and making other things more meaningful (to yourself). That's one outlook on nihilism As I understand it, that is, in fact, existentialism, not nihilism.

mindgam3 7y ago

PSA, Landmark Forum was banned as a cult in France after the release of an investigative documentary [0] which they tried vigorously to suppress. The group is a magnet for vulnerable people who respond to authoritarian style leadership and coercive psychological techniques including public shaming and gaslighting. They strongly discourage participants from taking notes. Anyone with a history of trauma, abuse or adverse childhood experiences (ACEs) should know that attending this kind of group can cause severe psychological harm. There is a way to do deep personal transformation safely, but this group isn’t it. 0. https://wikileaks.org/wiki/Suppressed_French_documentary_on_Landmark_Forum_cult,_transcript,_24_May_2004 https://wikileaks.org/wiki/Suppressed_French_documentary_on_...

mirimir 7y ago
Some do claim that it's a cult. But that's not my experience. Course leaders are generally highly charismatic, but are not typically authoritarian. There is a heavy emphasis on participants sharing experience with the group, and being coached to see their machinery. But it's a stretch to call that "public shaming and gaslighting". However, people are sometimes very attached to their interpretations, and it can get very intense. But you can leave, at any time. And if you leave early enough, they'll refund your payment. Edit: This is representative, based on my experience: https://praxis.fortelabs.co/a-skeptic-goes-to-the-landmark-forum-9eb966883103/ https://praxis.fortelabs.co/a-skeptic-goes-to-the-landmark-f...
- 1propionyl 7y ago
  I don't know anything about this particular case, but superficially what you're describing is not atypical of well-established cults, rather it is typical. The authoritarianism increases as one moves up levels and more "secrets" are revealed. At the ground floor, it's welcoming and communal, but as you are further inculcated the number of "secrets" or "mysteries" revealed, the amount of potential personal exposure (read: blackmail and/or punishment for treachery) and the amount of authoritarianism rises steeply.
  - mirimir 7y ago