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This is sort of one of the metrics James Fallows outlined in his book, "China Airborne". In order to build a competitive airliner, it requires integration of so

This is sort of one of the metrics James Fallows outlined in his book, "China Airborne". In order to build a competitive airliner, it requires integration of so many discipline: metallurgy, software, aeronautics, engineering, etc. He argues that when China can build a competitive airliner, their development can be said to have to be on par with the West.

brenden2 7y ago
It's worth noting that Brazil[1] has been exporting aircraft for quite some time, although it's still regarded as 3rd world. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embraer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embraer
- inferiorhuman 7y ago
  That's almost cheating given Santos-Dumont's role in the origins of aviation. That said I don't think there are any modern, high bypass turbofans coming out of Brazil. China will need those if they hope to have a fully homegrown solution.
- TylerE 7y ago
  3rd world doesn’t mean poorly developed. It just means not 1st world (NATO countries) or 2nd (Soviet Bloc)
  - juahan 7y ago
    So for example Finland and Sweden are third world countries?
    - TylerE 7y ago
      Yes. Also Ireland, Switzerland, Austria, and almost all of the Middle East.
- alicorn 7y ago
  Brasil has benefitted a lot from technology exchange with Saab. For those of you who are not familiar with the concept, the idea ,(very simplified) is that Brasil buys a lot of Saab planes, and in return gets knowledge about latest Swedish advances in the field. And Sweden, while perhaps not best in class, builds decent military planes, and I assume at least some of the knowledge is transferable to civil applications as well.
mikeyouse 7y ago
Noah Smith has a theory that one of the best ways to develop a country that’s nearing an inflection point is to commit to building something like this. His example is a coastal African country committing to building an Aircraft Carrier. You would need to develop advanced capabilities across a dozen industries and it could realistically kickstart competition in every one of those areas as the local skills level up. It’s a provocative but plausible idea in my opinion.
- lazylizard 7y ago
  I always had the imagination that the aircraft carrier wasn't that hard. The planes that can operate from the carrier. I imagined were harder.
  - mikeyouse 7y ago
    I think you'd need a few orders of magnitude more skilled workers to build a carrier vs. building a new airframe. I think the end skills will be much more useful to a developing economy as well (since they're better suited to heavy industry vs. more technical skills when developing a plane) but I could definitely be wrong there.
blackrock 7y ago
That was a very good book to read. As a quick summary: Boeing is commendable on pushing China’s aviation industry to adopt international safety standards, as well as certain key Chinese individuals that wanted China to improve themselves and be on par with international norms. The key here, is that the international norms and safety standards were established by the FAA and American industries. But to be politically neutral and more palatable, it was rephrased as “international standards”. But, Boeing’s goal was to improve the safety of China’s aviation industry, in order to avoid being caught up in bad press for one of their planes crashing, because of poor maintenance. And they figured by improving the safety, more people in China would fly, and thus buy more Boeing airplanes. It was a nice virtuous cycle for Boeing. The interesting thing, is that it appears the student has now become the master, and China adopted all the international standards from Boeing, and added more of their own, that they became even stricter, and more rigorous in their safety inspections and protocols. And over the past 2 decades, their statistical safety record is better than their international peers. And also, the other fascinating thing about the history of Boeing. Their first engineer was Wong Tsu, and he designed Boeing’s first commercial plane, the Model C water plane. This was instrumental to Boeing’s commercial success. Wong Tsu was born in China, and studied at MIT during the dawn of the airplane age. It seems the United States and China have a lot of connections going back in history.

brenden2 7y ago

It's worth noting that Brazil[1] has been exporting aircraft for quite some time, although it's still regarded as 3rd world. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embraer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embraer

inferiorhuman 7y ago
That's almost cheating given Santos-Dumont's role in the origins of aviation. That said I don't think there are any modern, high bypass turbofans coming out of Brazil. China will need those if they hope to have a fully homegrown solution.
TylerE 7y ago
3rd world doesn’t mean poorly developed. It just means not 1st world (NATO countries) or 2nd (Soviet Bloc)
- juahan 7y ago
  So for example Finland and Sweden are third world countries?
  - TylerE 7y ago
    Yes. Also Ireland, Switzerland, Austria, and almost all of the Middle East.
alicorn 7y ago
Brasil has benefitted a lot from technology exchange with Saab. For those of you who are not familiar with the concept, the idea ,(very simplified) is that Brasil buys a lot of Saab planes, and in return gets knowledge about latest Swedish advances in the field. And Sweden, while perhaps not best in class, builds decent military planes, and I assume at least some of the knowledge is transferable to civil applications as well.

mikeyouse 7y ago

Noah Smith has a theory that one of the best ways to develop a country that’s nearing an inflection point is to commit to building something like this. His example is a coastal African country committing to building an Aircraft Carrier. You would need to develop advanced capabilities across a dozen industries and it could realistically kickstart competition in every one of those areas as the local skills level up. It’s a provocative but plausible idea in my opinion.

lazylizard 7y ago
I always had the imagination that the aircraft carrier wasn't that hard. The planes that can operate from the carrier. I imagined were harder.
- mikeyouse 7y ago
  I think you'd need a few orders of magnitude more skilled workers to build a carrier vs. building a new airframe. I think the end skills will be much more useful to a developing economy as well (since they're better suited to heavy industry vs. more technical skills when developing a plane) but I could definitely be wrong there.

blackrock 7y ago

That was a very good book to read. As a quick summary: Boeing is commendable on pushing China’s aviation industry to adopt international safety standards, as well as certain key Chinese individuals that wanted China to improve themselves and be on par with international norms. The key here, is that the international norms and safety standards were established by the FAA and American industries. But to be politically neutral and more palatable, it was rephrased as “international standards”. But, Boeing’s goal was to improve the safety of China’s aviation industry, in order to avoid being caught up in bad press for one of their planes crashing, because of poor maintenance. And they figured by improving the safety, more people in China would fly, and thus buy more Boeing airplanes. It was a nice virtuous cycle for Boeing. The interesting thing, is that it appears the student has now become the master, and China adopted all the international standards from Boeing, and added more of their own, that they became even stricter, and more rigorous in their safety inspections and protocols. And over the past 2 decades, their statistical safety record is better than their international peers. And also, the other fascinating thing about the history of Boeing. Their first engineer was Wong Tsu, and he designed Boeing’s first commercial plane, the Model C water plane. This was instrumental to Boeing’s commercial success. Wong Tsu was born in China, and studied at MIT during the dawn of the airplane age. It seems the United States and China have a lot of connections going back in history.