3 ms·

I guess if the transfer process is perfected then you don't have to worry that much about HW failure or rot. Very little of today's data actually disappears due

I guess if the transfer process is perfected then you don't have to worry that much about HW failure or rot. Very little of today's data actually disappears due to these causes. Imagine today's equivalent of having your data on 2-3 hard drives, in the cloud, on 3 email addresses, and in a printed copy. You will backup a brain dump every evening to a satellite backup storage and 3 data centers around the world, maybe even to a cold or hot spare body. Someone stealing or altering a copy of you, or altering you (lots of philosophical questions around who is you anymore) would be the real worry. If anyone told you today your life depends on a piece of electronic data in your possession I'm sure you wouldn't let HW failure or data rot become a problem. Your birth certificate is in a single paper copy and it's damn hard to get a replacement and yet most people have no problem keeping it safe for decades.

naravara 7y ago
> Your birth certificate is in a single paper copy and it's damn hard to get a replacement and yet most people have no problem keeping it safe for decades. Decades might as well be seconds if we're talking about interstellar travel times.
- close04 7y ago
  Sure. But pieces of paper might as well be nothing compared to the technology we have available once we're capable of downloading consciousness into a machine and interstellar travel. So the challenge may be bigger but also the tools at your disposal. You are projecting today's problems on tomorrow's technology. And I'm being generous here, we're actually talking about multiple generations probably. We're just as close to understanding such future technology as people (scientists) 100-150 years ago were to understanding ours. Saying "in 200 years we'd surely lose the data to HW failure and bit rot" is no different from them saying "you can't fly without flapping the wings" 150 years ago. Those future generations face challenges we can't even imagine today. Like if I whip up 5 copies of myself who is "me"? And if 4 died will it be a loss of data or just loss of redundancy? Will it actually be just one combined copy running on multiple machines (Borg style)?
  - naravara 7y ago
    >You are projecting today's problems on tomorrow's technology. Entropy is just a fundamental aspect of how time progresses. It's basically axiomatic that anything we have degrades without actively recreating/reinforcing it with additional work.
krapp 7y ago
You can't have a perfect transfer process, thermodynamics prohibits that, and you have to have some kind of physical media which will fail over time, and thus require regular upkeep and maintenance, as well as a constant supply of power (which is also not infinitely available or free.) TANSTAAFL.
- close04 7y ago
  But there is such a thing as "good enough for all intents and purposes". I didn't say any transfer has to be perfect, or that the media is absolutely perfect, or that it has to be done for free, with no energy consumption, etc. just that if we achieve practical interstellar travel and can transfer consciousness to a machine I'd say the tech will be advanced enough for these issues to not be the major concern. You're introducing additional constraints and expecting my previous comment to account for them. Theseus's ship, theoretically you are not the same you from 10 years ago, cells have changed, DNA was altered, shape, consciousness, etc. are all slightly different. But for all intents and purposes you are you. So having a "good enough" copy of yourself may just be enough. Once it's in a machine it does not matter anymore. Thermodynamics allowed this comment you are reading now to be transferred from my mind to your mind (in its literal form, regardless of personal interpretation) or at least from my keyboard to your screen exactly how it was intended, with no discernible loss of fidelity. You're taking the purely theoretical stance where it's not the same photon of information. I'm taking the practical stance where it doesn't have to be. And even losing some bits of your data might not be a practical concern.
- zentiggr 7y ago
  Presuming technology has advanced to the point where transferring a consciousness to a machine form is possible, it can be presupposed that the power and maintenance requirements would have been worked out in parallel. The main thread of discussion is interesting enough to set aside quibbles about support technology that would have to be developed in tandem for it to be a viable process.

naravara 7y ago

> Your birth certificate is in a single paper copy and it's damn hard to get a replacement and yet most people have no problem keeping it safe for decades. Decades might as well be seconds if we're talking about interstellar travel times.

close04 7y ago
Sure. But pieces of paper might as well be nothing compared to the technology we have available once we're capable of downloading consciousness into a machine and interstellar travel. So the challenge may be bigger but also the tools at your disposal. You are projecting today's problems on tomorrow's technology. And I'm being generous here, we're actually talking about multiple generations probably. We're just as close to understanding such future technology as people (scientists) 100-150 years ago were to understanding ours. Saying "in 200 years we'd surely lose the data to HW failure and bit rot" is no different from them saying "you can't fly without flapping the wings" 150 years ago. Those future generations face challenges we can't even imagine today. Like if I whip up 5 copies of myself who is "me"? And if 4 died will it be a loss of data or just loss of redundancy? Will it actually be just one combined copy running on multiple machines (Borg style)?
- naravara 7y ago
  >You are projecting today's problems on tomorrow's technology. Entropy is just a fundamental aspect of how time progresses. It's basically axiomatic that anything we have degrades without actively recreating/reinforcing it with additional work.

krapp 7y ago

You can't have a perfect transfer process, thermodynamics prohibits that, and you have to have some kind of physical media which will fail over time, and thus require regular upkeep and maintenance, as well as a constant supply of power (which is also not infinitely available or free.) TANSTAAFL.

close04 7y ago
But there is such a thing as "good enough for all intents and purposes". I didn't say any transfer has to be perfect, or that the media is absolutely perfect, or that it has to be done for free, with no energy consumption, etc. just that if we achieve practical interstellar travel and can transfer consciousness to a machine I'd say the tech will be advanced enough for these issues to not be the major concern. You're introducing additional constraints and expecting my previous comment to account for them. Theseus's ship, theoretically you are not the same you from 10 years ago, cells have changed, DNA was altered, shape, consciousness, etc. are all slightly different. But for all intents and purposes you are you. So having a "good enough" copy of yourself may just be enough. Once it's in a machine it does not matter anymore. Thermodynamics allowed this comment you are reading now to be transferred from my mind to your mind (in its literal form, regardless of personal interpretation) or at least from my keyboard to your screen exactly how it was intended, with no discernible loss of fidelity. You're taking the purely theoretical stance where it's not the same photon of information. I'm taking the practical stance where it doesn't have to be. And even losing some bits of your data might not be a practical concern.
zentiggr 7y ago
Presuming technology has advanced to the point where transferring a consciousness to a machine form is possible, it can be presupposed that the power and maintenance requirements would have been worked out in parallel. The main thread of discussion is interesting enough to set aside quibbles about support technology that would have to be developed in tandem for it to be a viable process.