5 ms·

I definitely see the argument for why Big Tech's position in the US is arguably too dominant. If we look at the picture globally, Big Tech might be necessary f

by cwxm 7y ago

I definitely see the argument for why Big Tech's position in the US is arguably too dominant. If we look at the picture globally, Big Tech might be necessary for the western world to prevent the proliferation of China's semi-state-backed tech giants outside of China. Could breaking up big tech in the United States mean ceding position to China's tech giants?

screye 7y ago
No, it would be enforcing the same requirements on chinese companies as the US enforces on their own. If they don't then fine them just as much, to have access to the US market. It is not like cheap manufacturing, where the US has to cede ground to China because they simply can't compete. Tech is where the US excels.
- reroute1 7y ago
  > No, it would be enforcing the same requirements on chinese companies as the US enforces on their own How are they going to do that? > If they don't then fine them just as much, to have access to the US market. That's not the issue, the Chinese tech companies would have more freedom and support for the international market. Access to the US is just one part of that and there are already obstacles to that market. The main point is that the US companies would be hamstringed in a way that China companies would not.
  - JumpCrisscross 7y ago
    > How are they going to do that? U.S. jurisdiction extends on its territory and across the U.S. dollar. If a Chinese company wants to sell to no American companies and never use dollars, they're free to ignore American law. More pointedly, we've gone through this before. With the USSR. Competitive markets develop better than command-driven ones.
    - reroute1 7y ago
      That's not enforcing the same requirements on Chinese companies. That's one possible effect, but certainly not enforcing the same requirements.
- orcasauce 7y ago
  This is rapidly changing. On the international stage we're competing with state backed monopolies that don't suffer the same burden of internal US anti-competitive policy. It may damage access to the US market, but the expanding global market is becoming more appetizing anyway. Consider China's Belt and Roads initiative.
  - ocdtrekkie 7y ago
    I would argue that monopolies have a detrimental effect on innovation, as they kill disruptive new technologies in favor of their established services. Having a strong anti-competitive policy may help us excel over China.
    - Nasrudith 7y ago
      Even given actual monopolies (I strongly disagree with the current claims) for competition it is a push and pull thing whose specifics vary by situation. Monopolies have better economies of scale as an intrinsic real advantage but tend to be more hidebound and less innovative as they both don't need it in the moment and from a fear or cannibalization. But not always for innovation - they may also have the resources to devote to R&D that smaller players would lack. The mechanism of the monopoly also has significance for it determines what needs to be done to maintain it. Although having a "better" source like leveraging a prior runaway success is no guarantee that they won't turn to bad ways to preserve it like regulatory capture with no other purpose served.
      - Apocryphon 7y ago
        Xerox PARC had a ton of innovation and world-class R&D, but consumers didn’t benefit from any of it until smaller disruptive startups made good use of it.
        LargoLasskhyfv 7y ago
        Whereby the disruptive startups disrupted the very core of the innovations, namely one integrated environment where every component was 'aware' of the capabilities of others, and you could build and interconnect them in a visual way. Instead we have house of cards, layered up on top of each other, without regard for the bloat, impedance mismatches, (intentional) incompabilities and cognitive load that brings with it. Nicely done...
- mech1234 7y ago
  Chinese tech companies have a vast internal market to grow within (similar to the U.S.), but contrary to the U.S, once they reach a certain size the government actively helps them rather than hinders them. Once they reach this scale they are selling in international markets, and it becomes apparent to Western countries that they should try to fight and at least regain their own domestic market power. Huawei threatening to become the global standard 5G telecommunications equipment manufacturer is a good example. China's formula of state capitalism is likely to win in winner-take-all markets. Tearing U.S. giants into pieces would only hurt our competitive position.
  - president 7y ago
    This is why many are calling for the US and allies to decouple from China. Why continue to do business and empower a state that is not engaging in fair and free trade practices? For that matter, why is China still part of the WTO if it is not going to be a team player in the game of international trade?
    - wavefunction 7y ago
      As we saw with Western business folks who were victims of Chinese industrial espionage, they would rather have whatever access they have to Chinese markets than rock the boat.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
Apocryphon 7y ago
This is akin to asking if the U.S. should have adopted Marxist policies to beat the Soviet Union in the Cold War. Why shouldn't American innovation, free enterprise, and the spirit of competition be sufficient to defeat Chinese tech giants? Surely nimble American startups should be able to disrupt their state-sponsored dinosaurs.
- ztratar 7y ago
  "Surely nimble American startups should be able to disrupt their state-sponsored dinosaurs." I would recommend researching more about the Chinese technology industry. They aren't dinosaurs. Huawei, Tencent, Alibaba, Baidu, and Xiaomi are all serious contenders due to Government support and their overall productivity.
  - Apocryphon 7y ago
    I don't doubt they're powerful. Certainly American firms involved in specific areas of research, such as A.I., deserve more government support. But why should Americans abandon our spirit of capitalism and entrepreneurship, of startups? Forming corporate monopolies to defeat Chinese technological might is a betrayal of our nation's values. Is such a Faustian bargain truly worth it?
banads 7y ago
Interesting question. Maybe, maybe not. If such a move were to foster greater competition, one might think it would help US tech innovation.
boomboomsubban 7y ago
If we look at the picture globally, Chinas tech giants have been steadily growing for years despite Big Tech's dominant position. Could leaving big tech in control domestically mean ceding position to China's tech giants?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

by cwxm 7y ago

screye 7y ago

No, it would be enforcing the same requirements on chinese companies as the US enforces on their own. If they don't then fine them just as much, to have access to the US market. It is not like cheap manufacturing, where the US has to cede ground to China because they simply can't compete. Tech is where the US excels.

reroute1 7y ago
> No, it would be enforcing the same requirements on chinese companies as the US enforces on their own How are they going to do that? > If they don't then fine them just as much, to have access to the US market. That's not the issue, the Chinese tech companies would have more freedom and support for the international market. Access to the US is just one part of that and there are already obstacles to that market. The main point is that the US companies would be hamstringed in a way that China companies would not.
- JumpCrisscross 7y ago
  > How are they going to do that? U.S. jurisdiction extends on its territory and across the U.S. dollar. If a Chinese company wants to sell to no American companies and never use dollars, they're free to ignore American law. More pointedly, we've gone through this before. With the USSR. Competitive markets develop better than command-driven ones.
  - reroute1 7y ago
    That's not enforcing the same requirements on Chinese companies. That's one possible effect, but certainly not enforcing the same requirements.
orcasauce 7y ago
This is rapidly changing. On the international stage we're competing with state backed monopolies that don't suffer the same burden of internal US anti-competitive policy. It may damage access to the US market, but the expanding global market is becoming more appetizing anyway. Consider China's Belt and Roads initiative.
- ocdtrekkie 7y ago
  I would argue that monopolies have a detrimental effect on innovation, as they kill disruptive new technologies in favor of their established services. Having a strong anti-competitive policy may help us excel over China.
  - Nasrudith 7y ago
    Even given actual monopolies (I strongly disagree with the current claims) for competition it is a push and pull thing whose specifics vary by situation. Monopolies have better economies of scale as an intrinsic real advantage but tend to be more hidebound and less innovative as they both don't need it in the moment and from a fear or cannibalization. But not always for innovation - they may also have the resources to devote to R&D that smaller players would lack. The mechanism of the monopoly also has significance for it determines what needs to be done to maintain it. Although having a "better" source like leveraging a prior runaway success is no guarantee that they won't turn to bad ways to preserve it like regulatory capture with no other purpose served.
    - Apocryphon 7y ago
      Xerox PARC had a ton of innovation and world-class R&D, but consumers didn’t benefit from any of it until smaller disruptive startups made good use of it.
      - LargoLasskhyfv 7y ago
        Whereby the disruptive startups disrupted the very core of the innovations, namely one integrated environment where every component was 'aware' of the capabilities of others, and you could build and interconnect them in a visual way. Instead we have house of cards, layered up on top of each other, without regard for the bloat, impedance mismatches, (intentional) incompabilities and cognitive load that brings with it. Nicely done...
mech1234 7y ago
Chinese tech companies have a vast internal market to grow within (similar to the U.S.), but contrary to the U.S, once they reach a certain size the government actively helps them rather than hinders them. Once they reach this scale they are selling in international markets, and it becomes apparent to Western countries that they should try to fight and at least regain their own domestic market power. Huawei threatening to become the global standard 5G telecommunications equipment manufacturer is a good example. China's formula of state capitalism is likely to win in winner-take-all markets. Tearing U.S. giants into pieces would only hurt our competitive position.
- president 7y ago
  This is why many are calling for the US and allies to decouple from China. Why continue to do business and empower a state that is not engaging in fair and free trade practices? For that matter, why is China still part of the WTO if it is not going to be a team player in the game of international trade?
  - wavefunction 7y ago
    As we saw with Western business folks who were victims of Chinese industrial espionage, they would rather have whatever access they have to Chinese markets than rock the boat.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

Apocryphon 7y ago

This is akin to asking if the U.S. should have adopted Marxist policies to beat the Soviet Union in the Cold War. Why shouldn't American innovation, free enterprise, and the spirit of competition be sufficient to defeat Chinese tech giants? Surely nimble American startups should be able to disrupt their state-sponsored dinosaurs.

ztratar 7y ago
"Surely nimble American startups should be able to disrupt their state-sponsored dinosaurs." I would recommend researching more about the Chinese technology industry. They aren't dinosaurs. Huawei, Tencent, Alibaba, Baidu, and Xiaomi are all serious contenders due to Government support and their overall productivity.
- Apocryphon 7y ago
  I don't doubt they're powerful. Certainly American firms involved in specific areas of research, such as A.I., deserve more government support. But why should Americans abandon our spirit of capitalism and entrepreneurship, of startups? Forming corporate monopolies to defeat Chinese technological might is a betrayal of our nation's values. Is such a Faustian bargain truly worth it?

banads 7y ago

Interesting question. Maybe, maybe not. If such a move were to foster greater competition, one might think it would help US tech innovation.

boomboomsubban 7y ago

If we look at the picture globally, Chinas tech giants have been steadily growing for years despite Big Tech's dominant position. Could leaving big tech in control domestically mean ceding position to China's tech giants?

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]