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"Requires Android 5.0 and up" according to the Play Store listing. Android 4.x is from 2013 and had its last update in 2014. It hasn't received security patches

"Requires Android 5.0 and up" according to the Play Store listing. Android 4.x is from 2013 and had its last update in 2014. It hasn't received security patches since October 2017. Why should Mozilla continue to support such an ancient version?

severine 7y ago
Because millions of people are using it and can't change easily? It's not that I don't get your point, but the amount of Android 4.x that I encounter is really big, maybe it's my humble environment, but still.
- myrion 7y ago
  All of the 4.x versions together make up just over 10% of Androids used, according to Google. Pretty much every single 5.x version has a bigger share. It's reasonable to give that up if it makes development easier / the end result more secure, imo. Edited to ask: why is switching not easy? Even cheap phones come with far newer versions these days...
  - seren 7y ago
    Not to be snarky, but Firefox itself is probably below 10% market share globally, so according to that logic, developers should not bother testing compatibility or performance with Firefox (but I agree with your overall point or sentiment !)
  - squiggleblaz 7y ago
    Ten per cent sounds significant to me. If you were saying "oh, all 4.x versions make up just over 1% of Android versions" it's probably fair. New phones are not without costs even when they're cheap. It is better for everyone to use your phone until it stops working. And if you come from a place where a nice job lands you $150/mo a cheap phone is still expensive.
  - ekianjo 7y ago
    New phones have less features than old phones. No removable batteries, audio jacks becoming extinct, its almost as if manufacturers are making them completely disposable once the battery runs out.
  - severine 7y ago
    Only about 250 million Android 4.x users, mostly relatively poor, then: https://expandedramblings.com/index.php/android-statistics/ https://expandedramblings.com/index.php/android-statistics/ I thought Mozilla would consider us important if only for that 10%. You know, 10% is quite important: Firefox has less than 10% of the desktop/laptop users, less than 1% of mobile users.
squiggleblaz 7y ago
Firefox: "Consider ways to reduce your digital carbon footprint" Also Firefox: "Throw out your perfectly fine phone and buy a new one! Do not think about the slave labor and environmental/climate costs that will go into producing it." (I feel critical of Firefox in this thread, but I wouldn't dream of using Chrome. Mozilla are at least half decent and aim towards ethical behavior. But it would be nice if they let us do the things they recommend.)
- lorenzhs 7y ago
  I don't consider a phone that hasn't received security updates in 2.5 years "perfectly fine". I'm all for extending the life of older devices, don't misunderstand me, but that requires software updates. My phone is probably much older than those of most HN'ers (been using it for over 3 years now) and I used my last laptop for 7 years. But I don't run ancient unsupported software on either. What I'm saying is "you shouldn't run Android 4.x in 2020", not "you shouldn't use a device from 2014 in 2020". Whether it be through better manufacturer support or a custom ROM like LineageOS, these ancient versions need to die.
  - squiggleblaz 7y ago
    In the rest of life, we don't consider security flaws impose an obligation to replace something. For instance, your average home's door - fundamentally a security device! - is flimsy and does not offer much resistance. More durable doors are available, but not normally considered worth it. Considering how many Android 4 devices are still in use today, Google and the manufacturers are behaving incredibly unreasonably in not supporting them. Nothing about Android 4 means it should die, any more in 2020 than in 2014. Google could suddenly grow a conscience and stop being evil tomorrow if they wanted; the fact that they have not updated in in several years does not mean they cannot start updating it again. It is not incumbent on the owners of any phone to discard it. Please do not confuse the intrinsic properties of a product with business decisions. Corporations need to be responsible for the products that they release. Google is no less of a polluter than the company that releases waste chemicals into the local river. (LineageOS is no be all end all. Many devices are not supported at all, and volunteers have no obligation to clean up for lazy private companies with no sense of obligation to the communities that make them their profits.)
ZoomZoomZoom 7y ago
"2014 - Ancient version" Sorry, but this mindset doesn't make a lot of good for the technology. It's not 90s anymore in terms of performance growth. The reason a smartphone from 2014 is considered obsolete is not technical.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- kuschku 7y ago
  If 2014 isn't an ancient android version and okay without updates, then why do you need updates for Firefox? You can just as well keep using the 2014 version of that, too.
  - jerrtik 7y ago
    Apples to oranges and no i won't be using Firefox when Chrome, Brave and Edge still support the "ancient 2014 android version"
    - kuschku 7y ago
      Why is it apples and oranges? What makes using a 6 year outdated OS so much different from using a 6 year outdated browser? Both long stopped being supported by many websites and apps.
  - ZoomZoomZoom 7y ago
    >>and okay without updates Who said that? It's exactly the problem. There's no reason 6-year old phone can't get updates, besides forcing the selling of new devices. It's a practice against user interests.
jerrtik 7y ago
> It hasn't received security patches since October 2017. Why should Mozilla continue to support such an ancient version? Because ALL of their big competitors namely Chrome, Brave, Opera, and now Edge, support the "ancient" Android 4.x version.
- lorenzhs 7y ago
  Brave stopped supporting Android 4.x as well, see https://community.brave.com/t/installing-brave-on-android-without-using-google-play/77470/6 https://community.brave.com/t/installing-brave-on-android-wi.... The last version that supported 4.4 was 1.3.2, they're at 1.6.3 now for Android 5.0+.
  - jerrtik 7y ago
    Not true I have Brave v1.6.2 installed on my 4.4.2 phone Edit: just now i've upgraded to the latest v1.6.3, as you can see brave's still receives updates on a android 4.x

severine 7y ago

Because millions of people are using it and can't change easily? It's not that I don't get your point, but the amount of Android 4.x that I encounter is really big, maybe it's my humble environment, but still.

myrion 7y ago
All of the 4.x versions together make up just over 10% of Androids used, according to Google. Pretty much every single 5.x version has a bigger share. It's reasonable to give that up if it makes development easier / the end result more secure, imo. Edited to ask: why is switching not easy? Even cheap phones come with far newer versions these days...
- seren 7y ago
  Not to be snarky, but Firefox itself is probably below 10% market share globally, so according to that logic, developers should not bother testing compatibility or performance with Firefox (but I agree with your overall point or sentiment !)
- squiggleblaz 7y ago
  Ten per cent sounds significant to me. If you were saying "oh, all 4.x versions make up just over 1% of Android versions" it's probably fair. New phones are not without costs even when they're cheap. It is better for everyone to use your phone until it stops working. And if you come from a place where a nice job lands you $150/mo a cheap phone is still expensive.
- ekianjo 7y ago
  New phones have less features than old phones. No removable batteries, audio jacks becoming extinct, its almost as if manufacturers are making them completely disposable once the battery runs out.
- severine 7y ago
  Only about 250 million Android 4.x users, mostly relatively poor, then: https://expandedramblings.com/index.php/android-statistics/ https://expandedramblings.com/index.php/android-statistics/ I thought Mozilla would consider us important if only for that 10%. You know, 10% is quite important: Firefox has less than 10% of the desktop/laptop users, less than 1% of mobile users.

squiggleblaz 7y ago

Firefox: "Consider ways to reduce your digital carbon footprint" Also Firefox: "Throw out your perfectly fine phone and buy a new one! Do not think about the slave labor and environmental/climate costs that will go into producing it." (I feel critical of Firefox in this thread, but I wouldn't dream of using Chrome. Mozilla are at least half decent and aim towards ethical behavior. But it would be nice if they let us do the things they recommend.)

lorenzhs 7y ago
I don't consider a phone that hasn't received security updates in 2.5 years "perfectly fine". I'm all for extending the life of older devices, don't misunderstand me, but that requires software updates. My phone is probably much older than those of most HN'ers (been using it for over 3 years now) and I used my last laptop for 7 years. But I don't run ancient unsupported software on either. What I'm saying is "you shouldn't run Android 4.x in 2020", not "you shouldn't use a device from 2014 in 2020". Whether it be through better manufacturer support or a custom ROM like LineageOS, these ancient versions need to die.
- squiggleblaz 7y ago
  In the rest of life, we don't consider security flaws impose an obligation to replace something. For instance, your average home's door - fundamentally a security device! - is flimsy and does not offer much resistance. More durable doors are available, but not normally considered worth it. Considering how many Android 4 devices are still in use today, Google and the manufacturers are behaving incredibly unreasonably in not supporting them. Nothing about Android 4 means it should die, any more in 2020 than in 2014. Google could suddenly grow a conscience and stop being evil tomorrow if they wanted; the fact that they have not updated in in several years does not mean they cannot start updating it again. It is not incumbent on the owners of any phone to discard it. Please do not confuse the intrinsic properties of a product with business decisions. Corporations need to be responsible for the products that they release. Google is no less of a polluter than the company that releases waste chemicals into the local river. (LineageOS is no be all end all. Many devices are not supported at all, and volunteers have no obligation to clean up for lazy private companies with no sense of obligation to the communities that make them their profits.)

ZoomZoomZoom 7y ago

"2014 - Ancient version" Sorry, but this mindset doesn't make a lot of good for the technology. It's not 90s anymore in terms of performance growth. The reason a smartphone from 2014 is considered obsolete is not technical.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
kuschku 7y ago
If 2014 isn't an ancient android version and okay without updates, then why do you need updates for Firefox? You can just as well keep using the 2014 version of that, too.
- jerrtik 7y ago
  Apples to oranges and no i won't be using Firefox when Chrome, Brave and Edge still support the "ancient 2014 android version"
  - kuschku 7y ago
    Why is it apples and oranges? What makes using a 6 year outdated OS so much different from using a 6 year outdated browser? Both long stopped being supported by many websites and apps.
- ZoomZoomZoom 7y ago
  >>and okay without updates Who said that? It's exactly the problem. There's no reason 6-year old phone can't get updates, besides forcing the selling of new devices. It's a practice against user interests.

jerrtik 7y ago

> It hasn't received security patches since October 2017. Why should Mozilla continue to support such an ancient version? Because ALL of their big competitors namely Chrome, Brave, Opera, and now Edge, support the "ancient" Android 4.x version.

lorenzhs 7y ago
Brave stopped supporting Android 4.x as well, see https://community.brave.com/t/installing-brave-on-android-without-using-google-play/77470/6 https://community.brave.com/t/installing-brave-on-android-wi.... The last version that supported 4.4 was 1.3.2, they're at 1.6.3 now for Android 5.0+.
- jerrtik 7y ago
  Not true I have Brave v1.6.2 installed on my 4.4.2 phone Edit: just now i've upgraded to the latest v1.6.3, as you can see brave's still receives updates on a android 4.x