5 ms·

Yes you can, it works pretty well in a lot of places in the world.

eru 7y ago
I guess I should have been a bit more clear. When customers tip, and total wages in the tipped jobs are thus higher than in the non-tipped alternatives, workers will change jobs until expected total wages are about equal. What works in other countries, eg Japan or Australia, is that different social norms lead to much less total tipping. But you can't transform eg American into Japan or Australia at a whim. It's up to customers to make tipping the exception and not the norm. But that's hard: because the individual tip goes directly to that starving poor devil who served you and has a relatively big impact on their life, but only a very small impact on workers' expectations when changing jobs, there's a 'tragedy of the commons' going on: each individual tip you give provides you with a nice warm fuzzy feeling of altruism, but it damages your total goal of having decent base pay. So, it's very hard for individual customers to change that. But: individual employers can drive change. They can forbid tips and prominently display that they do so, so that both prospective workers and customers now what they are in for. Prospective workers will demand higher base pay. Customers will take the lack of tip into account when comparing prices. A Google search for 'restaurant bans tips' shows a lot of write-ups about experiments. It's not a panacea, of course.
- jakobegger 7y ago
  I don't think the system will fix itself by banning tips. That doesn't help anyone. What society should do is require a decent base pay (regardless of tip). That way I know that my server can make ends meet if I tip them or not, and tipping them becomes a curtesy, not a necessity.
  - mynameishere 7y ago
    I think a lot of people making comments like this don't realize that the market price of waitstaff's labor is probably similar to fast food or other retail work--$10/hour, maybe a bit more. With tipping, waitstaff can make really good money, to the point that any efforts on the part of a restaurant owner to replace tipping with higher wages tends to result in the entire staff quitting. My point: If "society" "requires a decent base pay", then waiters are going to get shafted, unless by "decent" you mean $40+/hour. The people getting screwed by tipping culture are not the front-of-house workers, but the other employees and the customers. I think the most compelling argument is to point out that the people doing the real work in a restaurant--the cooks and the dishwashers--are paid much worse than the waitstaff, who really aren't even necessary.
    - eru 7y ago
      And in the US, the law places limits on how much the restaurant can force the front-of-house staff to share tips with the other employees.
    - jakobegger 7y ago
      > replace tipping with higher wages I'm not suggesting to "replace" tipping with anything. I'm saying you should pay waiters enough so they don't depend on tips. Tips are a nice bonus, but they shouldn't be necessary. Which is the situation in most places other than the US. Here in Austria waiters are grateful if you tip them, and they might think you're cheap if you don't tip, but they still make enough to live even without tips.
    - leetcrew 7y ago
      > I think the most compelling argument is to point out that the people doing the real work in a restaurant--the cooks and the dishwashers--are paid much worse than the waitstaff, who really aren't even necessary. the qualifications for FOH vs BOH staff are really not that different, except that you have to speak decent english to be a server. either one you can get hired on the spot with no experience if youre willing to start on the low end. ask any cook whether they would rather do the server's job and they'll probably say no.
  - eru 7y ago
    Why wouldn't banning tipping help anyone? It would certainly help the patrons who no longer have to agonize. And it would bring more dignity.
- Nursie 7y ago
  It's not up to customers if the laws in the US are changed to stop the (IMHO abusive) practice of paying below minimum and then expecting tips to make up the shortfall.
  - eru 7y ago
    Unless they force people to take jobs at gunpoint (or change agreed contracts after the fact), no wage offered is abusive.
    - Nursie 7y ago
      If people are unable to find other work, there is little difference between the gun and starvation. Your views are rather myopic.
      - eru 7y ago
        Have you looked at unemployment rates recently?

eru 7y ago

I guess I should have been a bit more clear. When customers tip, and total wages in the tipped jobs are thus higher than in the non-tipped alternatives, workers will change jobs until expected total wages are about equal. What works in other countries, eg Japan or Australia, is that different social norms lead to much less total tipping. But you can't transform eg American into Japan or Australia at a whim. It's up to customers to make tipping the exception and not the norm. But that's hard: because the individual tip goes directly to that starving poor devil who served you and has a relatively big impact on their life, but only a very small impact on workers' expectations when changing jobs, there's a 'tragedy of the commons' going on: each individual tip you give provides you with a nice warm fuzzy feeling of altruism, but it damages your total goal of having decent base pay. So, it's very hard for individual customers to change that. But: individual employers can drive change. They can forbid tips and prominently display that they do so, so that both prospective workers and customers now what they are in for. Prospective workers will demand higher base pay. Customers will take the lack of tip into account when comparing prices. A Google search for 'restaurant bans tips' shows a lot of write-ups about experiments. It's not a panacea, of course.

jakobegger 7y ago
I don't think the system will fix itself by banning tips. That doesn't help anyone. What society should do is require a decent base pay (regardless of tip). That way I know that my server can make ends meet if I tip them or not, and tipping them becomes a curtesy, not a necessity.
- mynameishere 7y ago
  I think a lot of people making comments like this don't realize that the market price of waitstaff's labor is probably similar to fast food or other retail work--$10/hour, maybe a bit more. With tipping, waitstaff can make really good money, to the point that any efforts on the part of a restaurant owner to replace tipping with higher wages tends to result in the entire staff quitting. My point: If "society" "requires a decent base pay", then waiters are going to get shafted, unless by "decent" you mean $40+/hour. The people getting screwed by tipping culture are not the front-of-house workers, but the other employees and the customers. I think the most compelling argument is to point out that the people doing the real work in a restaurant--the cooks and the dishwashers--are paid much worse than the waitstaff, who really aren't even necessary.
  - eru 7y ago
    And in the US, the law places limits on how much the restaurant can force the front-of-house staff to share tips with the other employees.
  - jakobegger 7y ago
    > replace tipping with higher wages I'm not suggesting to "replace" tipping with anything. I'm saying you should pay waiters enough so they don't depend on tips. Tips are a nice bonus, but they shouldn't be necessary. Which is the situation in most places other than the US. Here in Austria waiters are grateful if you tip them, and they might think you're cheap if you don't tip, but they still make enough to live even without tips.
  - leetcrew 7y ago
    > I think the most compelling argument is to point out that the people doing the real work in a restaurant--the cooks and the dishwashers--are paid much worse than the waitstaff, who really aren't even necessary. the qualifications for FOH vs BOH staff are really not that different, except that you have to speak decent english to be a server. either one you can get hired on the spot with no experience if youre willing to start on the low end. ask any cook whether they would rather do the server's job and they'll probably say no.
- eru 7y ago
  Why wouldn't banning tipping help anyone? It would certainly help the patrons who no longer have to agonize. And it would bring more dignity.
Nursie 7y ago
It's not up to customers if the laws in the US are changed to stop the (IMHO abusive) practice of paying below minimum and then expecting tips to make up the shortfall.
- eru 7y ago
  Unless they force people to take jobs at gunpoint (or change agreed contracts after the fact), no wage offered is abusive.
  - Nursie 7y ago
    If people are unable to find other work, there is little difference between the gun and starvation. Your views are rather myopic.
    - eru 7y ago
      Have you looked at unemployment rates recently?