5 ms·

Everyone is tired because they are overworked: engineers, doctors, lawyers, accountants, bankers, police, cooks, janitors. Long shifts, split shifts, long comm

Everyone is tired because they are overworked: engineers, doctors, lawyers, accountants, bankers, police, cooks, janitors. Long shifts, split shifts, long commutes, homework, constant interruptions, questionable management practices, weak labor laws, weak enforcement thereof, asymmetric legal costs, self-training on your own time, expectations of faster and faster turnaround times, less and less support staff...

tempsy 7y ago
How did you conclude that “everyone” is overworked from this article? The managerial class notion of overwork/busyness is completely voluntary.
- chao- 7y ago
  Yes but those voluntary hours are necessary signaling to justify one's place in the contemporary social order. Without them, someone's peers might think them undeserving of their salary and/or status. So they wouldn't want to be the one VP at the company who has adequate leisure time, fulfills family obligations, and regularly gets a full night's rest. Or if they are somehow that person, they keep quiet about it! I began typing this intending it to be sarcastic, but at its conclusion, I am no longer certain about that.
- azinman2 7y ago
  According to what? Just because you're not in survival mode in the truest form of the word doesn't mean you aren't trying to maintain whatever you have. Expectations can still be set, email doesn't turn off, and personal relationships (kids, family, friends) continue on, along with personal goals, health, increased cost of living, etc. Just because it's 'voluntary' doesn't mean it's not work or it's not stress or it doesn't affect you.
  - tempsy 7y ago
    my point is there’s a lot of people who complain about work that could in theory never work another day in their life again but do for non-financial reasons anyway
    - firecall 7y ago
      How many is 'a lot'?
      - tempsy 7y ago
        I don’t know but I think a lot of people (no dependents) could live off $1M in invested savings for the rest of their life. 5-10 years in a managerial class role nets many that much.
        yibg 7y ago
        I see these types of comments here quit a bit, and I'm guessing they're mostly from folks with no kids or ever having kids. Certainly there is an argument to be made for working less and living with less, but for most people $1M invested doesn't check out. If you're relying solely on returns from that investment, then conservatively you can only safely withdraw 3-4%, which works out to 30-40k a year. That's close to full time on minimum wage in some states. While that's enough to survive, not sure if that'd be a fulfilling life for most, even while single. What happens if you have a family later? EDIT: Also not sure how many can actually save that much in 5-10 years. That's 100k - 200k of savings after tax. Even with compound interest, that's pretty tough for most I would think.
        tempsy 7y ago
        There are REITs that generate 12% dividends you can easily buy, which would be $120K before tax. 3-4% is extremely conservative and you could certainly withdraw more. It’s also less about “never making another dime working” and more that you don’t need a traditional 9-5. You can and should figure out other sources of income.
        yibg 7y ago
        There are investments that return 10+%, but that doesn't mean that's how much you should take out every year. The 3-4% (usually 4% for retirement savings) is to buffer for years where you get negative returns. I've never seen anyone recommend withdrawing 12% a year with plans to have the nestegg last a long time.
theklub 7y ago
Outsourcing of support staff...
agumonkey 7y ago
Who's investigating the reasons behind all the burnout and erosion everywhere ?
- wheelerwj 7y ago
  what do you mean?
- pryelluw 7y ago
  Probable some overworked and underpaid grad student.
- dilap 7y ago
  I think it's just a consequence of a free market/capitalism. Everyone is competing w/ everyone, so working as hard as possible, to beat the competition. Remedies? Either cultural (it just becomes unthinkable to work beyond X, because that's taboo) or legal (limits on how much you're allowed to work).
  - arvinsim 7y ago
    It's also because the productivity gains that we have is captured by businesses rather than the employees. Being productive doesn't give you more free time. It just means that you get more work.
    - munificent 7y ago
      > is captured by businesses rather than the employees. "Businesses" don't really do much of anything. What you really mean is the billionaire executives at the top of them.
      - lostcolony 7y ago
        Well, shareholders
      - seem_2211 7y ago
        Well yes, but the majority of it is captured by the middle class, in the form of public pensions, 401k's, the stock market etc.
alexashka 7y ago
From my personal experience, there are two camps: people who are working hard, and people who are on cruise control. Because so many are on cruise control, anyone who wants to make something happen has to work to make up for the lethargy all around him/her. I don't think it has ever not been this way except for short stints where entire tribes felt a sense of urgency. Most people's idea of an ideal life is sipping cocktails by the beach and gossiping about who said what. There is some wisdom in that :)
beamatronic 7y ago
Is there any other way to live in America ?
- forgotmypw38 7y ago
  Unsubscribe from job, unsubscribe from rent, trade remaining assets for a good sleeping bag, become neo-indigenous.
- war1025 7y ago
  Assuming your comment was a bit tongue-in-cheek, but yes. If you level-set your expectations you can live a very laid back life. Particularly in the software industry where you can get paid twice as much for working half as hard compared to most other fields.

tempsy 7y ago

How did you conclude that “everyone” is overworked from this article? The managerial class notion of overwork/busyness is completely voluntary.

chao- 7y ago
Yes but those voluntary hours are necessary signaling to justify one's place in the contemporary social order. Without them, someone's peers might think them undeserving of their salary and/or status. So they wouldn't want to be the one VP at the company who has adequate leisure time, fulfills family obligations, and regularly gets a full night's rest. Or if they are somehow that person, they keep quiet about it! I began typing this intending it to be sarcastic, but at its conclusion, I am no longer certain about that.
azinman2 7y ago
According to what? Just because you're not in survival mode in the truest form of the word doesn't mean you aren't trying to maintain whatever you have. Expectations can still be set, email doesn't turn off, and personal relationships (kids, family, friends) continue on, along with personal goals, health, increased cost of living, etc. Just because it's 'voluntary' doesn't mean it's not work or it's not stress or it doesn't affect you.
- tempsy 7y ago
  my point is there’s a lot of people who complain about work that could in theory never work another day in their life again but do for non-financial reasons anyway
  - firecall 7y ago
    How many is 'a lot'?
    - tempsy 7y ago
      I don’t know but I think a lot of people (no dependents) could live off $1M in invested savings for the rest of their life. 5-10 years in a managerial class role nets many that much.
      - yibg 7y ago
        I see these types of comments here quit a bit, and I'm guessing they're mostly from folks with no kids or ever having kids. Certainly there is an argument to be made for working less and living with less, but for most people $1M invested doesn't check out. If you're relying solely on returns from that investment, then conservatively you can only safely withdraw 3-4%, which works out to 30-40k a year. That's close to full time on minimum wage in some states. While that's enough to survive, not sure if that'd be a fulfilling life for most, even while single. What happens if you have a family later? EDIT: Also not sure how many can actually save that much in 5-10 years. That's 100k - 200k of savings after tax. Even with compound interest, that's pretty tough for most I would think.
        tempsy 7y ago
        There are REITs that generate 12% dividends you can easily buy, which would be $120K before tax. 3-4% is extremely conservative and you could certainly withdraw more. It’s also less about “never making another dime working” and more that you don’t need a traditional 9-5. You can and should figure out other sources of income.
        yibg 7y ago
        There are investments that return 10+%, but that doesn't mean that's how much you should take out every year. The 3-4% (usually 4% for retirement savings) is to buffer for years where you get negative returns. I've never seen anyone recommend withdrawing 12% a year with plans to have the nestegg last a long time.

theklub 7y ago

Outsourcing of support staff...

agumonkey 7y ago

Who's investigating the reasons behind all the burnout and erosion everywhere ?

wheelerwj 7y ago
what do you mean?
pryelluw 7y ago
Probable some overworked and underpaid grad student.
dilap 7y ago
I think it's just a consequence of a free market/capitalism. Everyone is competing w/ everyone, so working as hard as possible, to beat the competition. Remedies? Either cultural (it just becomes unthinkable to work beyond X, because that's taboo) or legal (limits on how much you're allowed to work).
- arvinsim 7y ago
  It's also because the productivity gains that we have is captured by businesses rather than the employees. Being productive doesn't give you more free time. It just means that you get more work.
  - munificent 7y ago
    > is captured by businesses rather than the employees. "Businesses" don't really do much of anything. What you really mean is the billionaire executives at the top of them.
    - lostcolony 7y ago
      Well, shareholders
    - seem_2211 7y ago
      Well yes, but the majority of it is captured by the middle class, in the form of public pensions, 401k's, the stock market etc.

alexashka 7y ago

From my personal experience, there are two camps: people who are working hard, and people who are on cruise control. Because so many are on cruise control, anyone who wants to make something happen has to work to make up for the lethargy all around him/her. I don't think it has ever not been this way except for short stints where entire tribes felt a sense of urgency. Most people's idea of an ideal life is sipping cocktails by the beach and gossiping about who said what. There is some wisdom in that :)

beamatronic 7y ago

Is there any other way to live in America ?

forgotmypw38 7y ago
Unsubscribe from job, unsubscribe from rent, trade remaining assets for a good sleeping bag, become neo-indigenous.
war1025 7y ago
Assuming your comment was a bit tongue-in-cheek, but yes. If you level-set your expectations you can live a very laid back life. Particularly in the software industry where you can get paid twice as much for working half as hard compared to most other fields.