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Worked out pretty well, I think. Au contraire mon ami! ML was better than most of its successors, including Java, which held programming back. Milner's ML avo

Worked out pretty well, I think. Au contraire mon ami! ML was better than most of its successors, including Java, which held programming back. Milner's ML avoided some of Java's glaring mistakes (e.g. exception specifications, lack of generics, non-uniform treatment of types, lack of higher-order functions, lack of pattern matching) from the start. Xavier Leroy showed how efficiently to compile ML in the 1990s. The main thing ML lacked (w.r.t sequential computing), was a good integration with OO and HKTs. That was solved by Scala.

pron 7y ago
I meant that it's worked out pretty well for Java. ML -- one of my favorite languages, alongside Java and a couple of others -- has also managed to avoid being used by anyone, really. But look at Java now: it has generics and higher-order functions, and it's getting a uniform treatment of types (Project Valhalla), and pattern matching [1]. And so while ML introduced those features in a research context, Java is the language that has made and will make the world actually use them. Being ahead of your time is often just as much of a mistake as being behind (as far as product design goes). As to the question of "holding programming back," it is yet to be seen how much of an impact these features have in practice. Same goes for what ML "lacked." I personally like some features more and some less, as do you, but I don't think anyone knows which programming language features really push programming forward. [1]: https://cr.openjdk.java.net/~briangoetz/amber/pattern-match.html https://cr.openjdk.java.net/~briangoetz/amber/pattern-match....
- AnimalMuppet 7y ago
  "Holding programming back" means that it would have advanced in the absence of Java. What language would have advanced it? Cladote seems to assume that ML would have, which would have been actually used if Java hadn't taken over the world. That seems unsupported by evidence. Overly optimistic, as well. And if Cladote's answer, ML, would not have taken over, then did Java hold back anything? No. Was it better than, say, C++? For many uses, yes. "We would have ruled the world if it wasn't for you meddling kids!" is wishful thinking. If ML was so good, it should have won anyway. Instead, "has managed to avoid being used by anyone" is a pretty fair assessment.
  - Cladode 7y ago
    If we collapse the two concepts of - best possible X - most popular X are we loosing possibly interesting perspectives on X?
    - pron 7y ago
      I don't think AnimalMuppet is confusing most popular with best. But as you don't have the data required to conclude which language is better by any meaningful metric, anyway, then your claim is just wishful thinking. If ML had won and Java lost, one could have just as easily said that ML was holding programming back from some imagined benefit Java would have brought. I think that it is you who are confusing "an interesting perspective" with a value judgment. Yes, ML had pattern matching before Java, while Java had pervasive dynamic linking and dynamic code loading. Those are simple facts and perhaps "an interesting perspective," but how do you decide which is better?
      - Cladode 7y ago
        Nobody has credible data enabling reproducible comparison of programming languages. The big lacuna of PL research ... If popularity mattered ... PHP, JavaScript etc. I find the evolution of all successful programming languages eventually to evolve into an ML-like core fascinating.
        pron 7y ago
        > Nobody has credible data enabling reproducible comparison of programming languages. Right, so as "better" and "best" are unknown, we should stop using those terms. I like Java and I like ML, but I don't know that one of them is better than the other, and if so which. > I find the evolution of all successful programming languages eventually to evolve into an ML-like core fascinating. Some of the successful typed languages, sure: Java, C++, C#, but the three heavily influence one another, and at least Java's and C#'s designers were aware of ML. So I don't think that, to the extent this is true, it's some "natural" draw, but rather a direct or indirect influence. On the other hand, you have Go, which is also quite successful (admittedly in a lower tier of success), and it doesn't seem to be converging on something ML-like, though (although it is influenced by another Milner idea), and neither is C.

pron 7y ago

I meant that it's worked out pretty well for Java. ML -- one of my favorite languages, alongside Java and a couple of others -- has also managed to avoid being used by anyone, really. But look at Java now: it has generics and higher-order functions, and it's getting a uniform treatment of types (Project Valhalla), and pattern matching [1]. And so while ML introduced those features in a research context, Java is the language that has made and will make the world actually use them. Being ahead of your time is often just as much of a mistake as being behind (as far as product design goes). As to the question of "holding programming back," it is yet to be seen how much of an impact these features have in practice. Same goes for what ML "lacked." I personally like some features more and some less, as do you, but I don't think anyone knows which programming language features really push programming forward. [1]: https://cr.openjdk.java.net/~briangoetz/amber/pattern-match.html https://cr.openjdk.java.net/~briangoetz/amber/pattern-match....

AnimalMuppet 7y ago
"Holding programming back" means that it would have advanced in the absence of Java. What language would have advanced it? Cladote seems to assume that ML would have, which would have been actually used if Java hadn't taken over the world. That seems unsupported by evidence. Overly optimistic, as well. And if Cladote's answer, ML, would not have taken over, then did Java hold back anything? No. Was it better than, say, C++? For many uses, yes. "We would have ruled the world if it wasn't for you meddling kids!" is wishful thinking. If ML was so good, it should have won anyway. Instead, "has managed to avoid being used by anyone" is a pretty fair assessment.
- Cladode 7y ago
  If we collapse the two concepts of - best possible X - most popular X are we loosing possibly interesting perspectives on X?
  - pron 7y ago
    I don't think AnimalMuppet is confusing most popular with best. But as you don't have the data required to conclude which language is better by any meaningful metric, anyway, then your claim is just wishful thinking. If ML had won and Java lost, one could have just as easily said that ML was holding programming back from some imagined benefit Java would have brought. I think that it is you who are confusing "an interesting perspective" with a value judgment. Yes, ML had pattern matching before Java, while Java had pervasive dynamic linking and dynamic code loading. Those are simple facts and perhaps "an interesting perspective," but how do you decide which is better?
    - Cladode 7y ago
      Nobody has credible data enabling reproducible comparison of programming languages. The big lacuna of PL research ... If popularity mattered ... PHP, JavaScript etc. I find the evolution of all successful programming languages eventually to evolve into an ML-like core fascinating.
      - pron 7y ago
        > Nobody has credible data enabling reproducible comparison of programming languages. Right, so as "better" and "best" are unknown, we should stop using those terms. I like Java and I like ML, but I don't know that one of them is better than the other, and if so which. > I find the evolution of all successful programming languages eventually to evolve into an ML-like core fascinating. Some of the successful typed languages, sure: Java, C++, C#, but the three heavily influence one another, and at least Java's and C#'s designers were aware of ML. So I don't think that, to the extent this is true, it's some "natural" draw, but rather a direct or indirect influence. On the other hand, you have Go, which is also quite successful (admittedly in a lower tier of success), and it doesn't seem to be converging on something ML-like, though (although it is influenced by another Milner idea), and neither is C.