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Is there a specific reason we're still doing ground based astronomy? With satellites becoming ever cheaper, sure we at some point should be able to get a signif

by tinco 7y ago

Is there a specific reason we're still doing ground based astronomy? With satellites becoming ever cheaper, sure we at some point should be able to get a significant telescope up there right? Are we waiting for the bigger rockets to accomplish that?

clmul 7y ago
It's very expensive to build (especially large) space telescopes (JWST is already costing more than 8 billion at this point), and astronomy is not very well funded.
- boznz 7y ago
  $500m for the telescope. $7500m for the pork.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- tinco 7y ago
  Aren't they mainly large so they have less hindrance of earth's atmosphere? Couldn't telescopes that are in space be smaller and have similar performance?
  - petschge 7y ago
    The are mainly large to increase resolution and sensitivity. Atmosphere limits how large you can make the mirror before hitting diminishing returns, but that is mitigated by good site selection, adaptive optics and lucky imaging (taking many exposures and keeping the least blurry ones).
  - clmul 7y ago
    Telescopes in space could have better performance, because you are not limited by atmospheric conditions for your angular resolution. But you still need a larger aperture to increase your theoretical angular resolution (see the Rayleigh criterion), and increase light gathering power.
    - outworlder 7y ago
      Can't you have a fleet (something like StarLink, but telescopes) and have a bigger effective aperture?
      - HorstG 7y ago
        Theoretically yes, through interferometry. But that is really difficult when there is relative motion within the constellation such as with starlink.
        petschge 7y ago
        For radio we might be able to make it work. But we currently don't have the ability to position satellites to within 10 nanometers, which would be required to make this work in the optical range that you have just killed off on the ground.
  - AWildC182 7y ago
    Large aperture means more light makes it into the telescope. JWST has a mirror assembly bigger than most ground based systems. It comes down to cost vs performance. For the cost of putting a small-mid sized satellite in orbit you can build one hell of an observatory that will function longer and have a much bigger tube. At a certain point it makes more sense to use orbital systems but only for certain types of experiments.
- LeifCarrotson 7y ago
  It's fascinating to me that the telescope costs so much more than the launch. A high-quality 24" or 1-meter university-grade observatory telescope can be had for well under $1 million. If you multiply that by a factor of 100 to mount it on a satellite, you're still at 'just' $0.1 billion and can buy a whole Ariane-5 launch just like the JWST to put it at your desired orbit for $0.15B, for a total of $0.25B (a Falcon Heavy runs about half the cost for a launch). You could launch 30 of those (hopefully improving your factor-of-100 cost increase to something more manageable) for less than what the JWST will cost. I get that JWST is a 6.5 meter telescope, not a piddly backyard 24" device, but why do we have to launch the best single scope possible? There are only 7 visible-light space telescopes listed at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_space_telescopes#Visible_light https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_space_telescopes#Visib.... I wish there were 70 or 700, with live Internet feeds.
  - ISL 7y ago
    JWST is being built to do things that are truly impossible on Earth. It is an infrared telescope that will image things that cannot be seen through Earth's atmosphere. JWST is not the first IR telescope (Spitzer Space telescope, retiring this month comes to mind, 0.85 m diameter primary), but its size will allow both improved resolution (diffraction limit falls like 1/diameter) and improved collection efficiency (grows like diameter^2). Without constellation-flying and interferometric telescopes (see Keck Observatory), one cannot get either one from an array of small telescopes. There are a lot of scientists grumpy about JWST because of its huge budget, but as long as JWST works, the view it gives of our universe will be spectacular. At this point, I think everyone really wants JWST to work, as so much has been sacrificed to make it possible.
  - Rebelgecko 7y ago
    Your $1 million university telescope probably wouldn't work long in space without maintenance, the ability to regulate temps, and rad-hard electronics.
  - petschge 7y ago
    See https://doi.org/10.1117/1.2031216 https://doi.org/10.1117/1.2031216 for the scaling of cost with size. It is very much not linear. Rather if you double the diameter the cost goes up by about a factor of 3.5 (closer to the area that went up by 4).
superkuh 7y ago
Innumberable reasons. Data transfer, stability, power, heat dissipation, ability to use large area parts, accessibility for fixing and upgrades, and on and on.
ubertakter 7y ago
Yeah. Depending on the spectrum, the telescope might need to be really big. Not to mention at the moment a telescope in orbit would hard, if not impossible, to service. Perhaps a review of telescope design is in order: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telescope https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telescope https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_telescope https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_telescope Building large telescopes is hard enough. Putting them in orbit just adds to all the costs. Look at the James Webb Telescope (which still hasn't been launched). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Webb_Space_Telescope https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Webb_Space_Telescope It seems possible to launch multiple small telescopes and operate them as one large scope using aperture synthesis. I don't know if there are any existing designs or plans for this. Also: somewhat ninja'd, see other replies as well.
- petschge 7y ago
  > It seems possible to launch multiple small telescopes and operate them as one large scope using aperture synthesis. I don't know if there are any existing designs or plans for this. We know how to do that in radio (VLBI), have some experience in IR (ALMA), are doing research on how to do that in optical. But in practice that is much harder than you think. The relative distances of the telescopes have to be known and constant to within a few fractions of the wavelength you are using. Hard when you are using centimeter radiowaves, insanely hard with optical light that has 600 nanometers wavelength.
  - bkloppenborg 7y ago
    We've been doing optical interferometry for quite some time. Homodyne techniques (see facilities, CHARA, VLTI, COAST, NPOI, SUSI) in which the light is interfered with itself are quite common. Heterodyne methods (one facility, ISI) in which the incoming light is mixed with a stable laser and downconverted to longer wavelengths are uncommon though.
  - bufferoverflow 7y ago
    Launch a bunch of small telescopes, connect them with a rigid structure. Keep it shaded. Shouldn't be impossible. And with no gravity and no atmosphere, even a light structure will keep it all positioned very precisely.
redisman 7y ago
Is there a specific reason we're still doing ground based datacenters? With satellites becoming ever cheaper, sure we at some point should be able to get a significant datacenter up there right? Are we waiting for the bigger rockets to accomplish that? That thought exercise should give you 90% of the answers to your question. The atmosphere and light pollution from cities are pretty easy to counteract with location and bigger optics.
xkjkls 7y ago
Launching big telescopes into space is really expensive.

by tinco 7y ago

clmul 7y ago

It's very expensive to build (especially large) space telescopes (JWST is already costing more than 8 billion at this point), and astronomy is not very well funded.

boznz 7y ago
$500m for the telescope. $7500m for the pork.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
tinco 7y ago
Aren't they mainly large so they have less hindrance of earth's atmosphere? Couldn't telescopes that are in space be smaller and have similar performance?
- petschge 7y ago
  The are mainly large to increase resolution and sensitivity. Atmosphere limits how large you can make the mirror before hitting diminishing returns, but that is mitigated by good site selection, adaptive optics and lucky imaging (taking many exposures and keeping the least blurry ones).
- clmul 7y ago
  Telescopes in space could have better performance, because you are not limited by atmospheric conditions for your angular resolution. But you still need a larger aperture to increase your theoretical angular resolution (see the Rayleigh criterion), and increase light gathering power.
  - outworlder 7y ago
    Can't you have a fleet (something like StarLink, but telescopes) and have a bigger effective aperture?
    - HorstG 7y ago
      Theoretically yes, through interferometry. But that is really difficult when there is relative motion within the constellation such as with starlink.
      - petschge 7y ago
        For radio we might be able to make it work. But we currently don't have the ability to position satellites to within 10 nanometers, which would be required to make this work in the optical range that you have just killed off on the ground.
- AWildC182 7y ago
  Large aperture means more light makes it into the telescope. JWST has a mirror assembly bigger than most ground based systems. It comes down to cost vs performance. For the cost of putting a small-mid sized satellite in orbit you can build one hell of an observatory that will function longer and have a much bigger tube. At a certain point it makes more sense to use orbital systems but only for certain types of experiments.
LeifCarrotson 7y ago
It's fascinating to me that the telescope costs so much more than the launch. A high-quality 24" or 1-meter university-grade observatory telescope can be had for well under $1 million. If you multiply that by a factor of 100 to mount it on a satellite, you're still at 'just' $0.1 billion and can buy a whole Ariane-5 launch just like the JWST to put it at your desired orbit for $0.15B, for a total of $0.25B (a Falcon Heavy runs about half the cost for a launch). You could launch 30 of those (hopefully improving your factor-of-100 cost increase to something more manageable) for less than what the JWST will cost. I get that JWST is a 6.5 meter telescope, not a piddly backyard 24" device, but why do we have to launch the best single scope possible? There are only 7 visible-light space telescopes listed at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_space_telescopes#Visible_light https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_space_telescopes#Visib.... I wish there were 70 or 700, with live Internet feeds.
- ISL 7y ago
  JWST is being built to do things that are truly impossible on Earth. It is an infrared telescope that will image things that cannot be seen through Earth's atmosphere. JWST is not the first IR telescope (Spitzer Space telescope, retiring this month comes to mind, 0.85 m diameter primary), but its size will allow both improved resolution (diffraction limit falls like 1/diameter) and improved collection efficiency (grows like diameter^2). Without constellation-flying and interferometric telescopes (see Keck Observatory), one cannot get either one from an array of small telescopes. There are a lot of scientists grumpy about JWST because of its huge budget, but as long as JWST works, the view it gives of our universe will be spectacular. At this point, I think everyone really wants JWST to work, as so much has been sacrificed to make it possible.
- Rebelgecko 7y ago
  Your $1 million university telescope probably wouldn't work long in space without maintenance, the ability to regulate temps, and rad-hard electronics.
- petschge 7y ago
  See https://doi.org/10.1117/1.2031216 https://doi.org/10.1117/1.2031216 for the scaling of cost with size. It is very much not linear. Rather if you double the diameter the cost goes up by about a factor of 3.5 (closer to the area that went up by 4).

superkuh 7y ago

Innumberable reasons. Data transfer, stability, power, heat dissipation, ability to use large area parts, accessibility for fixing and upgrades, and on and on.

ubertakter 7y ago

Yeah. Depending on the spectrum, the telescope might need to be really big. Not to mention at the moment a telescope in orbit would hard, if not impossible, to service. Perhaps a review of telescope design is in order: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telescope https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telescope https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_telescope https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_telescope Building large telescopes is hard enough. Putting them in orbit just adds to all the costs. Look at the James Webb Telescope (which still hasn't been launched). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Webb_Space_Telescope https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Webb_Space_Telescope It seems possible to launch multiple small telescopes and operate them as one large scope using aperture synthesis. I don't know if there are any existing designs or plans for this. Also: somewhat ninja'd, see other replies as well.

petschge 7y ago
> It seems possible to launch multiple small telescopes and operate them as one large scope using aperture synthesis. I don't know if there are any existing designs or plans for this. We know how to do that in radio (VLBI), have some experience in IR (ALMA), are doing research on how to do that in optical. But in practice that is much harder than you think. The relative distances of the telescopes have to be known and constant to within a few fractions of the wavelength you are using. Hard when you are using centimeter radiowaves, insanely hard with optical light that has 600 nanometers wavelength.
- bkloppenborg 7y ago
  We've been doing optical interferometry for quite some time. Homodyne techniques (see facilities, CHARA, VLTI, COAST, NPOI, SUSI) in which the light is interfered with itself are quite common. Heterodyne methods (one facility, ISI) in which the incoming light is mixed with a stable laser and downconverted to longer wavelengths are uncommon though.
- bufferoverflow 7y ago
  Launch a bunch of small telescopes, connect them with a rigid structure. Keep it shaded. Shouldn't be impossible. And with no gravity and no atmosphere, even a light structure will keep it all positioned very precisely.

redisman 7y ago

Is there a specific reason we're still doing ground based datacenters? With satellites becoming ever cheaper, sure we at some point should be able to get a significant datacenter up there right? Are we waiting for the bigger rockets to accomplish that? That thought exercise should give you 90% of the answers to your question. The atmosphere and light pollution from cities are pretty easy to counteract with location and bigger optics.

xkjkls 7y ago

Launching big telescopes into space is really expensive.