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> The injury rate in charity-parachutists was 11% That's how-are-they-even-allowed-to-operate high. Can this really be right?

by im3w1l 7y ago

krilly 7y ago
Bear in mind that you wouldn't do a jump for charity if you wanted to it anyway. Their usual clientele would probably be very fit and young, whereas charity jumpers would be more likely to be old or unfit. So I'm sure their overall injury rates are lower
- VBprogrammer 7y ago
  That doesn't ring true to me at all. Almost all of the people I've seen do some kind of charity extreme sport event would definitely have done it without the charity part if that was an option.
  - krilly 7y ago
    I was actually chatting to some friends about this the other day. I personally would love to go skydiving but I wouldn't get sponsored for it because it isn't actually hard. Unlike running a marathon for instance, it doesn't require any preparation on my part or any superhuman effort, just a lot of cash. I think most people who do feats of endurance for charity (marathons, cycling, mountaineering, etc) would probably like to do it anyway but it's fair to ask for sponsorship money because of the effort involved.
    - usrusr 7y ago
      Why would doing a marathon and pretending to do it for other reasons than doing a marathon be any different? The only reason separating endurance sports efforts "for charity" from a hypothetical "candy crush for charity" or "Netflix binge for charity" is that the athletic efforts apparently impress some potential donors. If the same is true for courage dares like fixed line parachuting then so be it. An entirely orthogonal question is how event costs are funded: do participants pay out of their own pocket or is it taken from the donations pool? If it's the latter I'd call it borderline charity fraud, no matter if the activity is running, flaggelation, parachuting or smoking weed. The usual compromise, I think, is clear separation between sponsors (who fund the event) and donors (whose money is given to charity with zero cut or expenses deduction). It's hard to find something to criticize in that model, if someone wants to sponsor entertainment, fine. If tens of thousands of sponsorship dollars yield tens of donation dollars, still fine: the assumption that the tens of thousands would have been donated otherwise cannot be made. (it still might get muddy if that sponsorship somehow gets different tax treatment than other business expenses or if the main beneficiary of those costs, either as participant or as organizer, is the CEO or something like that but that's totally besides the question of parachuting vs endurance)
    - perl4ever 7y ago
      Skydiving does not require "a lot of cash". You don't have to buy a parachute! Or an airplane, for that matter.
sosborn 7y ago
At first I was thinking no big deal, it probably includes things like minor scrapes and bruises from the landing, but then I saw this: >Sixty-three percent of casualties who were charity-parachutists required hospital admission, representing a serious injury rate of 7% Can any skydivers give insight on this?
- cromulent 7y ago
  That sounds extremely high to me, but I couldn't find which 5 year period was studied. Back in round parachute days, injuries were much more common. Most people who have jumped in the last 30 years have never seen someone use a roundy. These days most people do tandems, and if you follow instructions and raise your legs upon landing, you won't get hurt.
  - digikazi 7y ago
    Pfffff, I used a roundy for my first jump here in the UK only yesterday! I mean 1998. Which suddenly seems like yesterday. Jeez...
    - perl4ever 7y ago
      Back in 1996 (I think), I had the impression they were obsolete, and during the instructional session before jumping, we were told to pay attention because once a guy who had experience in the military thought he knew everything from jumping with the round ones, and didn't listen and died as a consequence. I think it was something about the reserve being automatic on a military rig and not on a civilian one.
- viacoffee 7y ago
  Skydiver here. I'm not familiar with this particular event, but that does seem rather high even for those years. In the USA we average ~1 incident per 250,000 sport skydives. Tandems are around 1 in 500,000. You can find the USPA incidents here: https://uspa.org/Find/FAQs/Safety https://uspa.org/Find/FAQs/Safety
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
digikazi 7y ago
Yes, that figure is probably right. I did my first parachute jump in the summer of '98, a year before this study. It was a static line jump, using a round canopy; ancient stuff even then! I had wanted to skydive for a long time, so it wasn't a "charity jump." However, almost everyone else on my course was - they were really young as well, a bit naive and maybe a little dazed by the idea of jumping out of a plane. Some of them were Chinese/Korean students, with a very, very rudimentary grasp of the English language; I genuinely have no idea how they all passed the course, but they did. When they went on to jump, I think just under half of them ended up with broken legs/sprained ankles and so on. If my memory serves me right during the same drop the jumpmaster managed to kill himself too. To sum up, 11% sounds about right.
- htfu 7y ago
  Wait, you're not exactly sure whether your instructor died or not? Just how drunk were you? Mushrooms are way more rewarding anyways.
  - digikazi 7y ago
    Not very drunk at all :) The instructor's name was Andrew Kelly, and the time was May 1998 [1] - quite a long time ago, so forgive my foggy memory. I wasn't on that particular load; I had already done my first jump a few days before...and my second jump 3 days after he passed. [1] - http://www.skydivingfatalities.info/search.asp?MinDate=5%2F8%2F1995&MaxDate=1%2F2%2F2009&Place=Headcorn&State=&Country=&Category=&MinAge=16&MaxAge=78&UnknownAge=on&MinJumps=0&MaxJumps=15000&UnknownJumps=on&AAD=&RSL=&Description=&DescriptionOperator=OR&Lessons=&LessonsOperator=OR&Personal=on http://www.skydivingfatalities.info/search.asp?MinDate=5%2F8...
    - htfu 7y ago
      Ah fair play, makes sense.
jcampbell1 7y ago
This is round parachute static line. You hit the ground at about the same speed as jumping from 10 feet. Completely manageable on a windless day or over a freshly plowed field. Outside of those conditions, it’s a shitshow.

> The injury rate in charity-parachutists was 11% That's how-are-they-even-allowed-to-operate high. Can this really be right?

by im3w1l 7y ago

> The injury rate in charity-parachutists was 11% That's how-are-they-even-allowed-to-operate high. Can this really be right?

krilly 7y ago

Bear in mind that you wouldn't do a jump for charity if you wanted to it anyway. Their usual clientele would probably be very fit and young, whereas charity jumpers would be more likely to be old or unfit. So I'm sure their overall injury rates are lower

VBprogrammer 7y ago
That doesn't ring true to me at all. Almost all of the people I've seen do some kind of charity extreme sport event would definitely have done it without the charity part if that was an option.
- krilly 7y ago
  I was actually chatting to some friends about this the other day. I personally would love to go skydiving but I wouldn't get sponsored for it because it isn't actually hard. Unlike running a marathon for instance, it doesn't require any preparation on my part or any superhuman effort, just a lot of cash. I think most people who do feats of endurance for charity (marathons, cycling, mountaineering, etc) would probably like to do it anyway but it's fair to ask for sponsorship money because of the effort involved.
  - usrusr 7y ago
    Why would doing a marathon and pretending to do it for other reasons than doing a marathon be any different? The only reason separating endurance sports efforts "for charity" from a hypothetical "candy crush for charity" or "Netflix binge for charity" is that the athletic efforts apparently impress some potential donors. If the same is true for courage dares like fixed line parachuting then so be it. An entirely orthogonal question is how event costs are funded: do participants pay out of their own pocket or is it taken from the donations pool? If it's the latter I'd call it borderline charity fraud, no matter if the activity is running, flaggelation, parachuting or smoking weed. The usual compromise, I think, is clear separation between sponsors (who fund the event) and donors (whose money is given to charity with zero cut or expenses deduction). It's hard to find something to criticize in that model, if someone wants to sponsor entertainment, fine. If tens of thousands of sponsorship dollars yield tens of donation dollars, still fine: the assumption that the tens of thousands would have been donated otherwise cannot be made. (it still might get muddy if that sponsorship somehow gets different tax treatment than other business expenses or if the main beneficiary of those costs, either as participant or as organizer, is the CEO or something like that but that's totally besides the question of parachuting vs endurance)
  - perl4ever 7y ago
    Skydiving does not require "a lot of cash". You don't have to buy a parachute! Or an airplane, for that matter.

sosborn 7y ago

At first I was thinking no big deal, it probably includes things like minor scrapes and bruises from the landing, but then I saw this: >Sixty-three percent of casualties who were charity-parachutists required hospital admission, representing a serious injury rate of 7% Can any skydivers give insight on this?

cromulent 7y ago
That sounds extremely high to me, but I couldn't find which 5 year period was studied. Back in round parachute days, injuries were much more common. Most people who have jumped in the last 30 years have never seen someone use a roundy. These days most people do tandems, and if you follow instructions and raise your legs upon landing, you won't get hurt.
- digikazi 7y ago
  Pfffff, I used a roundy for my first jump here in the UK only yesterday! I mean 1998. Which suddenly seems like yesterday. Jeez...
  - perl4ever 7y ago
    Back in 1996 (I think), I had the impression they were obsolete, and during the instructional session before jumping, we were told to pay attention because once a guy who had experience in the military thought he knew everything from jumping with the round ones, and didn't listen and died as a consequence. I think it was something about the reserve being automatic on a military rig and not on a civilian one.
viacoffee 7y ago
Skydiver here. I'm not familiar with this particular event, but that does seem rather high even for those years. In the USA we average ~1 incident per 250,000 sport skydives. Tandems are around 1 in 500,000. You can find the USPA incidents here: https://uspa.org/Find/FAQs/Safety https://uspa.org/Find/FAQs/Safety

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

digikazi 7y ago

Yes, that figure is probably right. I did my first parachute jump in the summer of '98, a year before this study. It was a static line jump, using a round canopy; ancient stuff even then! I had wanted to skydive for a long time, so it wasn't a "charity jump." However, almost everyone else on my course was - they were really young as well, a bit naive and maybe a little dazed by the idea of jumping out of a plane. Some of them were Chinese/Korean students, with a very, very rudimentary grasp of the English language; I genuinely have no idea how they all passed the course, but they did. When they went on to jump, I think just under half of them ended up with broken legs/sprained ankles and so on. If my memory serves me right during the same drop the jumpmaster managed to kill himself too. To sum up, 11% sounds about right.

htfu 7y ago
Wait, you're not exactly sure whether your instructor died or not? Just how drunk were you? Mushrooms are way more rewarding anyways.
- digikazi 7y ago
  Not very drunk at all :) The instructor's name was Andrew Kelly, and the time was May 1998 [1] - quite a long time ago, so forgive my foggy memory. I wasn't on that particular load; I had already done my first jump a few days before...and my second jump 3 days after he passed. [1] - http://www.skydivingfatalities.info/search.asp?MinDate=5%2F8%2F1995&MaxDate=1%2F2%2F2009&Place=Headcorn&State=&Country=&Category=&MinAge=16&MaxAge=78&UnknownAge=on&MinJumps=0&MaxJumps=15000&UnknownJumps=on&AAD=&RSL=&Description=&DescriptionOperator=OR&Lessons=&LessonsOperator=OR&Personal=on http://www.skydivingfatalities.info/search.asp?MinDate=5%2F8...
  - htfu 7y ago
    Ah fair play, makes sense.

jcampbell1 7y ago

This is round parachute static line. You hit the ground at about the same speed as jumping from 10 feet. Completely manageable on a windless day or over a freshly plowed field. Outside of those conditions, it’s a shitshow.