4 ms·

> It would benefit ... the workers, by being able to have a more predictable income ... The problem is employers would not match what servers and other tip ear

by davemp 7y ago

> It would benefit ... the workers, by being able to have a more predictable income ... The problem is employers would not match what servers and other tip earning jobs currently make. When I was in high-school I made significantly more than would have been possible at any other part time job with tips.

lotsofpulp 7y ago
Price obfuscation benefits the seller, but in this case, only some sellers. The restaurant benefits from not having to pay market wages. The waiters who are able to suss out higher than average tips benefit from customers overpaying and not reporting income for taxes. The waiters who aren't able to command at least an average level of tips lose out along with customers who overpay. As a buyer, I assume the cost of whatever is on the menu is 15% plus tax more than the price on the menu when deciding whether or not it's worth purchasing something, but it would be nice to not have to do that calculation.
- leetcrew 7y ago
  servers are guaranteed to at least average the state minimum wage over a pay period. when I worked in a restaurant, my alternatives offered minimum wage plus maybe a dollar or two per hour, while everyone at the restaurant averaged more like $12-14. btw, this was definitely not a fancy restaurant. it's hard for me to believe the average/median server would be better off without tipping. ps, 15% is a pretty bad tip. unless someone was wrong with the service, 18-20% is really the minimum.
  - lotsofpulp 7y ago
    When I grew up, 15% was the standard tip for average service. Since it's already a percentage, it's already cost of living adjusted. This 18% to 20% nonsense only started after the iPads from Clover or whatever came out, who obviously have an incentive to increase tipping percentages as they make more since they take a percentage of every transaction too. I also love how some restaurants nowadays conveniently calculate tip on the post tax total of your meal for your "convenience".
    - ghaff 7y ago
      The norm certainly seems to have drifted upwards over time. Way back when I agree it was something like 15% before tax. These days it seems to be more like 18-20% on the total.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
    - leetcrew 7y ago
      you may be right that it's due to clover/square/whatever, but the staff definitely expects 18-20%. they will remember you if you always tip 15%. the post-tax thing is bullshit, I agree on that. tips should always be calculated from the pre-tax total.
  - JohnFen 7y ago
    In many states, the minimum wage for many traditionally tipped positions (particularly in food service) is substantially lower than the minimum wage for everyone else. > unless someone was wrong with the service, 18-20% is really the minimum. This. My default tip is 20%. If the staff did more than an average job, I'll go to 25% or more.
    - lotsofpulp 7y ago
      leetcrew is correct. All states, or maybe it's because of federal laws, require that if a server doesn't earn sufficient tips to meet minimum wage, then the restaurant has to make up for the gap. However, servers who ask for this compensation probably get sacked, and/or they would rather not report how much cash tips they are making.
      - JohnFen 7y ago
        > then the restaurant has to make up for the gap. Interesting. My knowledge of minimum wage law is out of date. I couldn't confirm what you say here (not that I don't believe you), but in searching for this I did notice that my state did two things -- it eliminated the lower minimum wage for food service employees, and it made it illegal for employers to include tip income as income for the purposes of satisfying the minimum wage. I like both of those things.
      - gamblor956 7y ago
        This is technically true...except that a number of states (including CA) now require restaurants to pay servers minimum wage before taking into account the tips they make. IOW, tips in CA are now in addition to the minimum wage the server makes, not in lieu of it.
  - tremon 7y ago
    15% is a pretty bad tip. unless someone was wrong with the service, 18-20% is really the minimum. That's... amazingly sad. Where I live, 10% is a generous tip; but then again, our servers get the same minimum wage as everyone else.
    - lotsofpulp 7y ago
      Believe it or not, in the US even in places where waiters don’t have a lower minimum wage (the whole justification for tipping), people still expect to pay and receive 20%+ tips. All so you aren’t perceived as being “cheap”. And the people cooking don’t even get any of it.
  - gamblor956 7y ago
    When I was growing up, the standard rates were 10% for good service and 12% for great service. 15% is not a bad tip for a server. 15% is a great tip for someone who does the least amount of work in the restaurant. EDIT: Followup. CA [1], and especially SF and LA, now mandate that tipped workers get the same pre-tip minimum wage as non-tipped workers. In LA that means $12-$13/hour before tips, so anything more than a 10% tip really demands absolutely amazing service. [1] https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped#California https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped#C...
    - leetcrew 7y ago
      I'm not making a moral claim; I'm just giving advice / speaking from my experience as a server. if you tip according to the rules of your childhood (ie 10-12%), you will be remembered poorly at whatever restaurants you frequent.
      - gamblor956 7y ago
        I don't particularly care if the server remembers me poorly, since they usually cycle in and out so fast that any institutional memory of my tipping is generally lost within a month. And if they have a problem with my tipping, I can always stop eating at the restaurant, and then they won't get any tips at all from me.

by davemp 7y ago

lotsofpulp 7y ago

Price obfuscation benefits the seller, but in this case, only some sellers. The restaurant benefits from not having to pay market wages. The waiters who are able to suss out higher than average tips benefit from customers overpaying and not reporting income for taxes. The waiters who aren't able to command at least an average level of tips lose out along with customers who overpay. As a buyer, I assume the cost of whatever is on the menu is 15% plus tax more than the price on the menu when deciding whether or not it's worth purchasing something, but it would be nice to not have to do that calculation.

leetcrew 7y ago
servers are guaranteed to at least average the state minimum wage over a pay period. when I worked in a restaurant, my alternatives offered minimum wage plus maybe a dollar or two per hour, while everyone at the restaurant averaged more like $12-14. btw, this was definitely not a fancy restaurant. it's hard for me to believe the average/median server would be better off without tipping. ps, 15% is a pretty bad tip. unless someone was wrong with the service, 18-20% is really the minimum.
- lotsofpulp 7y ago
  When I grew up, 15% was the standard tip for average service. Since it's already a percentage, it's already cost of living adjusted. This 18% to 20% nonsense only started after the iPads from Clover or whatever came out, who obviously have an incentive to increase tipping percentages as they make more since they take a percentage of every transaction too. I also love how some restaurants nowadays conveniently calculate tip on the post tax total of your meal for your "convenience".
  - ghaff 7y ago
    The norm certainly seems to have drifted upwards over time. Way back when I agree it was something like 15% before tax. These days it seems to be more like 18-20% on the total.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - leetcrew 7y ago
    you may be right that it's due to clover/square/whatever, but the staff definitely expects 18-20%. they will remember you if you always tip 15%. the post-tax thing is bullshit, I agree on that. tips should always be calculated from the pre-tax total.
- JohnFen 7y ago
  In many states, the minimum wage for many traditionally tipped positions (particularly in food service) is substantially lower than the minimum wage for everyone else. > unless someone was wrong with the service, 18-20% is really the minimum. This. My default tip is 20%. If the staff did more than an average job, I'll go to 25% or more.
  - lotsofpulp 7y ago
    leetcrew is correct. All states, or maybe it's because of federal laws, require that if a server doesn't earn sufficient tips to meet minimum wage, then the restaurant has to make up for the gap. However, servers who ask for this compensation probably get sacked, and/or they would rather not report how much cash tips they are making.
    - JohnFen 7y ago
      > then the restaurant has to make up for the gap. Interesting. My knowledge of minimum wage law is out of date. I couldn't confirm what you say here (not that I don't believe you), but in searching for this I did notice that my state did two things -- it eliminated the lower minimum wage for food service employees, and it made it illegal for employers to include tip income as income for the purposes of satisfying the minimum wage. I like both of those things.
    - gamblor956 7y ago
      This is technically true...except that a number of states (including CA) now require restaurants to pay servers minimum wage before taking into account the tips they make. IOW, tips in CA are now in addition to the minimum wage the server makes, not in lieu of it.
- tremon 7y ago
  15% is a pretty bad tip. unless someone was wrong with the service, 18-20% is really the minimum. That's... amazingly sad. Where I live, 10% is a generous tip; but then again, our servers get the same minimum wage as everyone else.
  - lotsofpulp 7y ago
    Believe it or not, in the US even in places where waiters don’t have a lower minimum wage (the whole justification for tipping), people still expect to pay and receive 20%+ tips. All so you aren’t perceived as being “cheap”. And the people cooking don’t even get any of it.
- gamblor956 7y ago
  When I was growing up, the standard rates were 10% for good service and 12% for great service. 15% is not a bad tip for a server. 15% is a great tip for someone who does the least amount of work in the restaurant. EDIT: Followup. CA [1], and especially SF and LA, now mandate that tipped workers get the same pre-tip minimum wage as non-tipped workers. In LA that means $12-$13/hour before tips, so anything more than a 10% tip really demands absolutely amazing service. [1] https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped#California https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped#C...
  - leetcrew 7y ago
    I'm not making a moral claim; I'm just giving advice / speaking from my experience as a server. if you tip according to the rules of your childhood (ie 10-12%), you will be remembered poorly at whatever restaurants you frequent.
    - gamblor956 7y ago
      I don't particularly care if the server remembers me poorly, since they usually cycle in and out so fast that any institutional memory of my tipping is generally lost within a month. And if they have a problem with my tipping, I can always stop eating at the restaurant, and then they won't get any tips at all from me.