5 ms·

I am surprised that getting rid of tipping is not a bigger political platform. It would benefit both the consumer, by being more upfront about pricing, and the

I am surprised that getting rid of tipping is not a bigger political platform. It would benefit both the consumer, by being more upfront about pricing, and the workers, by being able to have a more predictable income. The only one it wouldn't benefit is the companies who use tipping to display dishonest pricing.

davemp 7y ago
> It would benefit ... the workers, by being able to have a more predictable income ... The problem is employers would not match what servers and other tip earning jobs currently make. When I was in high-school I made significantly more than would have been possible at any other part time job with tips.
- lotsofpulp 7y ago
  Price obfuscation benefits the seller, but in this case, only some sellers. The restaurant benefits from not having to pay market wages. The waiters who are able to suss out higher than average tips benefit from customers overpaying and not reporting income for taxes. The waiters who aren't able to command at least an average level of tips lose out along with customers who overpay. As a buyer, I assume the cost of whatever is on the menu is 15% plus tax more than the price on the menu when deciding whether or not it's worth purchasing something, but it would be nice to not have to do that calculation.
  - leetcrew 7y ago
    servers are guaranteed to at least average the state minimum wage over a pay period. when I worked in a restaurant, my alternatives offered minimum wage plus maybe a dollar or two per hour, while everyone at the restaurant averaged more like $12-14. btw, this was definitely not a fancy restaurant. it's hard for me to believe the average/median server would be better off without tipping. ps, 15% is a pretty bad tip. unless someone was wrong with the service, 18-20% is really the minimum.
    - lotsofpulp 7y ago
      When I grew up, 15% was the standard tip for average service. Since it's already a percentage, it's already cost of living adjusted. This 18% to 20% nonsense only started after the iPads from Clover or whatever came out, who obviously have an incentive to increase tipping percentages as they make more since they take a percentage of every transaction too. I also love how some restaurants nowadays conveniently calculate tip on the post tax total of your meal for your "convenience".
      - ghaff 7y ago
        The norm certainly seems to have drifted upwards over time. Way back when I agree it was something like 15% before tax. These days it seems to be more like 18-20% on the total.
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - leetcrew 7y ago
        you may be right that it's due to clover/square/whatever, but the staff definitely expects 18-20%. they will remember you if you always tip 15%. the post-tax thing is bullshit, I agree on that. tips should always be calculated from the pre-tax total.
    - JohnFen 7y ago
      In many states, the minimum wage for many traditionally tipped positions (particularly in food service) is substantially lower than the minimum wage for everyone else. > unless someone was wrong with the service, 18-20% is really the minimum. This. My default tip is 20%. If the staff did more than an average job, I'll go to 25% or more.
      - lotsofpulp 7y ago
        leetcrew is correct. All states, or maybe it's because of federal laws, require that if a server doesn't earn sufficient tips to meet minimum wage, then the restaurant has to make up for the gap. However, servers who ask for this compensation probably get sacked, and/or they would rather not report how much cash tips they are making.
ghaff 7y ago
It's complicated. There's a good Freakonomics podcast on it [1]. (Including some really interesting info on tipping at Uber.) For restaurants specifically, it's really hard to eliminate tipping for the wait staff. [1] http://freakonomics.com/podcast/tipping/ http://freakonomics.com/podcast/tipping/
- lotsofpulp 7y ago
  I don't think it's complicated. Waiters are betting that people will overpay, and of course, income tax is avoided if you don't declare cash tips in your income. And who doesn't like thinking they are an above average waiter getting above average tips compared to a flat wage? And of course, restaurants don't mind as any portion of wages paid directly by the customer benefit them.
  - ghaff 7y ago
    It's complicated insofar as, if you own a restaurant and don't allow tipping, it's probably going to be harder for you to hire and retain waitstaff than it will be for your competitor down the road. (Not to mention that a lot of potential customers will look at your prices and think they're relatively high even if they should do the appropriate mental calculation.) I'm not a particular fan of tipping but it's difficult for an individual business to eliminate the practice.
    - lotsofpulp 7y ago
      Yes, it would have to be a societal effort (or government banning it, but I don't think that's the right move). Actually, I'm thinking everyone paying for meals electronically and tipping electronically would go a long way as that would remove the extra incentive from evading income taxes. Once that is gone, then the below average waiters may be incentivized to demand a steady wage rather than be subject to volatile tips. Of course, in the US, even in places where all people have the same minimum wage, people still tip lest you be seen as a cheapskate.
      - 7y ago
leetcrew 7y ago
there's not really consensus on tipping. when I worked in restaurants, we certainly didn't enjoy the variable cashflow, but my peers and I generally agreed that made more money on average than we would at nontipped jobs of a similar level. from the perspective of the customer, some people hate having to figure out what an appropriate tip is, while others like being able to essentially bid for service. I know people like to post studies that show it doesn't actually work this way, but I damn sure remembered people who consistently tipped well and I always made them a priority.
- ghaff 7y ago
  Yes. Even if one leaves aside the difficulty of an individual business eliminating tipping... It's a near-certainty that if, say, a city banned tipping in restaurants somehow, the jobs that rely on tipping to supplement wages would pretty much all get a pay cut even if the base salary were raised somewhat.
- xzel 7y ago
  In some European countries people still tip for good service so that could still be factor (the dynamic between increase waiter attentiveness to high tipper). Hopefully, jobs "of that similar level" could pay a better wage in general.
  - mercer 7y ago
    I always tip, and usually rounded up from at least 10%. Often even 20% if it's a small amount. Mostly because I've worked service industry jobs and the experience was awful compared to my current work. That said, there's no pressure whatsoever on tipping, and while it's common enough that the service workers aren't 'surprised', I regularly have friends making a comment about how they never tip. I do vaguely remember quite a few places having tip jars though, but my memory is fuzzy on that.
- nabnob 7y ago
  If you don't mind me asking, how much do you think you made hourly with tips on average?
JohnFen 7y ago
I will only stop tipping people working jobs that traditionally get tips when their employers pay them rates that will compensate for the missing tips. I also tend to tip in cash, specifically so that the company isn't involved. A tip is between me and the people who served me.
- frankbreetz 7y ago
  That is why it would have to be a political platform, simply not tipping people who rely on tips to make living is not making a point and is immoral. Lots of countries don't have tipping like the US, so there are plenty of models out there.

davemp 7y ago

> It would benefit ... the workers, by being able to have a more predictable income ... The problem is employers would not match what servers and other tip earning jobs currently make. When I was in high-school I made significantly more than would have been possible at any other part time job with tips.

lotsofpulp 7y ago
Price obfuscation benefits the seller, but in this case, only some sellers. The restaurant benefits from not having to pay market wages. The waiters who are able to suss out higher than average tips benefit from customers overpaying and not reporting income for taxes. The waiters who aren't able to command at least an average level of tips lose out along with customers who overpay. As a buyer, I assume the cost of whatever is on the menu is 15% plus tax more than the price on the menu when deciding whether or not it's worth purchasing something, but it would be nice to not have to do that calculation.
- leetcrew 7y ago
  servers are guaranteed to at least average the state minimum wage over a pay period. when I worked in a restaurant, my alternatives offered minimum wage plus maybe a dollar or two per hour, while everyone at the restaurant averaged more like $12-14. btw, this was definitely not a fancy restaurant. it's hard for me to believe the average/median server would be better off without tipping. ps, 15% is a pretty bad tip. unless someone was wrong with the service, 18-20% is really the minimum.
  - lotsofpulp 7y ago
    When I grew up, 15% was the standard tip for average service. Since it's already a percentage, it's already cost of living adjusted. This 18% to 20% nonsense only started after the iPads from Clover or whatever came out, who obviously have an incentive to increase tipping percentages as they make more since they take a percentage of every transaction too. I also love how some restaurants nowadays conveniently calculate tip on the post tax total of your meal for your "convenience".
    - ghaff 7y ago
      The norm certainly seems to have drifted upwards over time. Way back when I agree it was something like 15% before tax. These days it seems to be more like 18-20% on the total.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
    - leetcrew 7y ago
      you may be right that it's due to clover/square/whatever, but the staff definitely expects 18-20%. they will remember you if you always tip 15%. the post-tax thing is bullshit, I agree on that. tips should always be calculated from the pre-tax total.
  - JohnFen 7y ago
    In many states, the minimum wage for many traditionally tipped positions (particularly in food service) is substantially lower than the minimum wage for everyone else. > unless someone was wrong with the service, 18-20% is really the minimum. This. My default tip is 20%. If the staff did more than an average job, I'll go to 25% or more.
    - lotsofpulp 7y ago
      leetcrew is correct. All states, or maybe it's because of federal laws, require that if a server doesn't earn sufficient tips to meet minimum wage, then the restaurant has to make up for the gap. However, servers who ask for this compensation probably get sacked, and/or they would rather not report how much cash tips they are making.

ghaff 7y ago

It's complicated. There's a good Freakonomics podcast on it [1]. (Including some really interesting info on tipping at Uber.) For restaurants specifically, it's really hard to eliminate tipping for the wait staff. [1] http://freakonomics.com/podcast/tipping/ http://freakonomics.com/podcast/tipping/

lotsofpulp 7y ago
I don't think it's complicated. Waiters are betting that people will overpay, and of course, income tax is avoided if you don't declare cash tips in your income. And who doesn't like thinking they are an above average waiter getting above average tips compared to a flat wage? And of course, restaurants don't mind as any portion of wages paid directly by the customer benefit them.
- ghaff 7y ago
  It's complicated insofar as, if you own a restaurant and don't allow tipping, it's probably going to be harder for you to hire and retain waitstaff than it will be for your competitor down the road. (Not to mention that a lot of potential customers will look at your prices and think they're relatively high even if they should do the appropriate mental calculation.) I'm not a particular fan of tipping but it's difficult for an individual business to eliminate the practice.
  - lotsofpulp 7y ago
    Yes, it would have to be a societal effort (or government banning it, but I don't think that's the right move). Actually, I'm thinking everyone paying for meals electronically and tipping electronically would go a long way as that would remove the extra incentive from evading income taxes. Once that is gone, then the below average waiters may be incentivized to demand a steady wage rather than be subject to volatile tips. Of course, in the US, even in places where all people have the same minimum wage, people still tip lest you be seen as a cheapskate.
    - 7y ago

leetcrew 7y ago

there's not really consensus on tipping. when I worked in restaurants, we certainly didn't enjoy the variable cashflow, but my peers and I generally agreed that made more money on average than we would at nontipped jobs of a similar level. from the perspective of the customer, some people hate having to figure out what an appropriate tip is, while others like being able to essentially bid for service. I know people like to post studies that show it doesn't actually work this way, but I damn sure remembered people who consistently tipped well and I always made them a priority.

ghaff 7y ago
Yes. Even if one leaves aside the difficulty of an individual business eliminating tipping... It's a near-certainty that if, say, a city banned tipping in restaurants somehow, the jobs that rely on tipping to supplement wages would pretty much all get a pay cut even if the base salary were raised somewhat.
xzel 7y ago
In some European countries people still tip for good service so that could still be factor (the dynamic between increase waiter attentiveness to high tipper). Hopefully, jobs "of that similar level" could pay a better wage in general.
- mercer 7y ago
  I always tip, and usually rounded up from at least 10%. Often even 20% if it's a small amount. Mostly because I've worked service industry jobs and the experience was awful compared to my current work. That said, there's no pressure whatsoever on tipping, and while it's common enough that the service workers aren't 'surprised', I regularly have friends making a comment about how they never tip. I do vaguely remember quite a few places having tip jars though, but my memory is fuzzy on that.
nabnob 7y ago
If you don't mind me asking, how much do you think you made hourly with tips on average?

JohnFen 7y ago

I will only stop tipping people working jobs that traditionally get tips when their employers pay them rates that will compensate for the missing tips. I also tend to tip in cash, specifically so that the company isn't involved. A tip is between me and the people who served me.

frankbreetz 7y ago
That is why it would have to be a political platform, simply not tipping people who rely on tips to make living is not making a point and is immoral. Lots of countries don't have tipping like the US, so there are plenty of models out there.