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Why is the manufacturer even involved in this? I thought all updates come straight from google? I have zero sympathy for Google at this point. It is one thing t

by mcny 7y ago

Why is the manufacturer even involved in this? I thought all updates come straight from google? I have zero sympathy for Google at this point. It is one thing that the drivers are not all free and open source but Google should at least require that Google has access to the drivers or software it needs to keep devices up to date. If a vendor doesn’t do that, don’t do business with that vendor.

mattlondon 7y ago
Well I think it is more "this feature requires kernel 4.x, but the drivers for this manufacturer's hardware do not support 4.x, so we cannot offer this feature without losing sound/WiFi/touchpad/etc" The chromebooks do update themselves all the time but I gues there is some more fundamental stuff that requires more low-level changes.
- mcny 7y ago
  What I’m saying is Google should require access to the source code and the right to modify it. At that point, it is Google’s responsibility to make any changes to keep it compatible with the latest kernel.
  - mattlondon 7y ago
    Ok sure - you're welcome to your opinion. I feel like expecting endless maintenance builds from Google for any manufacturer's hardware forever is a bit of an optimistic expectation though, especially for old models. They guarantee at least 5 years support (1) for updates which I don't think is unreasonable considering that they are so cheap. If that is not long enough for you then I guess you are not the target audience (students and enterprise users are the target audience) 1 - https://support.google.com/chrome/a/answer/6220366?hl=en https://support.google.com/chrome/a/answer/6220366?hl=en
    - scarface74 7y ago
      Well, Microsoft just ended support for Windows 7 - released July 2009 - yesterday. It’s currently running on my old 2006 era Mac Mini that my mom is using. I also have a 2009 Core 2 Duo laptop that until early last year was my Plex Server. It is running a still supported Windows 10.
    - paulcarroty 7y ago
      > I guess you are not the target audience Google always kills their products unexpected for all, don't matter which audience you are.
    - pjmlp 7y ago
      My Asus laptop bought with Windows 7 on it back in 2009, is running the latest Windows 10 version. Both Microsoft and Asus keep having updates for it. Google just needs to actually care.
      - ac29 7y ago
        The driver model for Windows is different than Linux, though. Realistically, most Linux drivers need to be open source and maintained as part of the kernel to continue working, whereas Windows offers a stable driver interface so its not uncommon at all to have drivers that haven't been updated in many years work just fine on current Windows releases.
        pjmlp 7y ago
        Google as ChromeOS/Android owner can do whatever they feel like it, regardless of the driver model. In fact, Android since project Treble has a driver model similar to Windows. Linux drivers are considered legacy on Android. Likewise they could have contracts in place that would force their suppliers to provide updates for X years.
  - jhasse 7y ago
    > What I’m saying is Google should require access to the source code and the right to modify it. I guess there would be 0 hardware manufacturers left to choose from then.
    - mcny 7y ago
      > I guess there would be 0 hardware manufacturers left to choose from then. Maybe I overestimated how much leverage Google has then :/
- petecox 7y ago
  For Android, they're proposing GKI module shims that a vendor can code against. So a vendor plugs a binary blob into, say a 5.4 GKI module, which is hopefully forward compatible with the interface to a 6.25 GKI module released sometime in 2026. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/11/google-outlines-plans-for-mainline-linux-kernel-support-in-android/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/11/google-outlines-plan...
  - exikyut 7y ago
    (GKI = generic kernel image)
  - pjmlp 7y ago
    They are, but it is only post Android 10, so it will take years before it matters at all. As an example, Vulkan was added in Android 7 as optional API, the adoption was so low, with so many buggy drivers that as of Android 10 it became a compulsory API. On Android everything that Google leaves the OEMs free reign hardly gets done.
Already__Taken 7y ago
I guess it depends if they've done something funny when producing it? I've had the odd PC motherboard and laptop that won't work right with drivers from the manufacturer (intel/amd/nvidia), they need the specific gigabyte or asus provided driver package. Usually a sound problem. This might explain the wide range of bluetooth complaints. My dell xps 13" touchpad drivers didn't work from synaptics, it had to be from dell. Something else needed realtek driver direct from their website, windows updates version were broken.
- mcny 7y ago
  My understanding is Google certifies each chrome book. They should be able to say give me all the source code and the rights to modify them as I see fit or you won’t get certified.

by mcny 7y ago

mattlondon 7y ago

Well I think it is more "this feature requires kernel 4.x, but the drivers for this manufacturer's hardware do not support 4.x, so we cannot offer this feature without losing sound/WiFi/touchpad/etc" The chromebooks do update themselves all the time but I gues there is some more fundamental stuff that requires more low-level changes.

mcny 7y ago
What I’m saying is Google should require access to the source code and the right to modify it. At that point, it is Google’s responsibility to make any changes to keep it compatible with the latest kernel.
- mattlondon 7y ago
  Ok sure - you're welcome to your opinion. I feel like expecting endless maintenance builds from Google for any manufacturer's hardware forever is a bit of an optimistic expectation though, especially for old models. They guarantee at least 5 years support (1) for updates which I don't think is unreasonable considering that they are so cheap. If that is not long enough for you then I guess you are not the target audience (students and enterprise users are the target audience) 1 - https://support.google.com/chrome/a/answer/6220366?hl=en https://support.google.com/chrome/a/answer/6220366?hl=en
  - scarface74 7y ago
    Well, Microsoft just ended support for Windows 7 - released July 2009 - yesterday. It’s currently running on my old 2006 era Mac Mini that my mom is using. I also have a 2009 Core 2 Duo laptop that until early last year was my Plex Server. It is running a still supported Windows 10.
  - paulcarroty 7y ago
    > I guess you are not the target audience Google always kills their products unexpected for all, don't matter which audience you are.
  - pjmlp 7y ago
    My Asus laptop bought with Windows 7 on it back in 2009, is running the latest Windows 10 version. Both Microsoft and Asus keep having updates for it. Google just needs to actually care.
    - ac29 7y ago
      The driver model for Windows is different than Linux, though. Realistically, most Linux drivers need to be open source and maintained as part of the kernel to continue working, whereas Windows offers a stable driver interface so its not uncommon at all to have drivers that haven't been updated in many years work just fine on current Windows releases.
      - pjmlp 7y ago
        Google as ChromeOS/Android owner can do whatever they feel like it, regardless of the driver model. In fact, Android since project Treble has a driver model similar to Windows. Linux drivers are considered legacy on Android. Likewise they could have contracts in place that would force their suppliers to provide updates for X years.
- jhasse 7y ago
  > What I’m saying is Google should require access to the source code and the right to modify it. I guess there would be 0 hardware manufacturers left to choose from then.
  - mcny 7y ago
    > I guess there would be 0 hardware manufacturers left to choose from then. Maybe I overestimated how much leverage Google has then :/
petecox 7y ago
For Android, they're proposing GKI module shims that a vendor can code against. So a vendor plugs a binary blob into, say a 5.4 GKI module, which is hopefully forward compatible with the interface to a 6.25 GKI module released sometime in 2026. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/11/google-outlines-plans-for-mainline-linux-kernel-support-in-android/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/11/google-outlines-plan...
- exikyut 7y ago
  (GKI = generic kernel image)
- pjmlp 7y ago
  They are, but it is only post Android 10, so it will take years before it matters at all. As an example, Vulkan was added in Android 7 as optional API, the adoption was so low, with so many buggy drivers that as of Android 10 it became a compulsory API. On Android everything that Google leaves the OEMs free reign hardly gets done.

Already__Taken 7y ago

I guess it depends if they've done something funny when producing it? I've had the odd PC motherboard and laptop that won't work right with drivers from the manufacturer (intel/amd/nvidia), they need the specific gigabyte or asus provided driver package. Usually a sound problem. This might explain the wide range of bluetooth complaints. My dell xps 13" touchpad drivers didn't work from synaptics, it had to be from dell. Something else needed realtek driver direct from their website, windows updates version were broken.

mcny 7y ago
My understanding is Google certifies each chrome book. They should be able to say give me all the source code and the rights to modify them as I see fit or you won’t get certified.