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I have trouble imagining a future where people don't want to trade their time for more goods and services. New phones, nice holidays. Especially with the advert

I have trouble imagining a future where people don't want to trade their time for more goods and services. New phones, nice holidays. Especially with the advertising industry constantly bombarding them with messages about how their lives could be better if they just spend a little more. A UBI paid for by taxing capital might help feed and house people, but I think people are always going to want more, and they will be unhappy if they can't trade their time for it.

cryptoz 7y ago
I think the definition of 'work' here is work that must be done for day-to-day survival. It is not meant to include all possible enjoyable pursuits, like trading your time for goods and services. I don't think Wilde or the author or others wish for the elimination of all human creativity. There's a big difference between 1) learning sciences or arts or anything at all for the purpose of improving your life (being able to trade your now-valuable time for other things, or simply for the enjoyment of the tasks themselves) and 2) working menial, drudgery tasks simply for the ability to purchase food and ensure a roof over your head one month at a time. Many people I've met think that #2 is a required part of humanity; that if you do not spend most of your waking hours contributing something to society that you don't deserve to keep living. I think we need a societal shift in thinking to allow for a world that is coming, where basic needs for all ought to be met and our unique human experiences can be better spent - either with family, or exploring the cosmos, or building new inventions. It hasn't really been possible before that we are so close to building a society where few human jobs will be required to sustain our populations' needs.
- jay_kyburz 7y ago
  Yes, but the point I was trying to make was that I still think we will need an economy so that somebody will pay you study or be creative. Otherwise, what will you give the owners of the AI in trade for the new Phone / House / Holiday. People will probably still want to trade about 30-40 hours of time a week doing whatever utopian pursuit pays best. I think the transition from our current economy to this "post work" economy will be very interesting.
  - AstralStorm 7y ago
    Someone has to provide you the basic materials and sustenance for any pursuit. Certain things will still be rare or kept that way for advantage...
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
Ghjklov 7y ago
On the other hand, I spend a lot of my time working to pay rent and feed myself. I'm not even alive, mostly dead inside. What more do I want when there's no time to do anything with more stuff?
claudiawerner 7y ago
> I have trouble imagining a future where people don't want to trade their time for more goods and services. New phones, nice holidays. Especially with the advertising industry constantly bombarding them with messages about how their lives could be better if they just spend a little more. This difficulty in imagining a qualitatively different future is what Mark Fisher called "capitalist realism". A changed society produces a changed population, and therefore a society without advertising will not have its members affected in the same compulsion as they are due to advertising today.

cryptoz 7y ago

I think the definition of 'work' here is work that must be done for day-to-day survival. It is not meant to include all possible enjoyable pursuits, like trading your time for goods and services. I don't think Wilde or the author or others wish for the elimination of all human creativity. There's a big difference between 1) learning sciences or arts or anything at all for the purpose of improving your life (being able to trade your now-valuable time for other things, or simply for the enjoyment of the tasks themselves) and 2) working menial, drudgery tasks simply for the ability to purchase food and ensure a roof over your head one month at a time. Many people I've met think that #2 is a required part of humanity; that if you do not spend most of your waking hours contributing something to society that you don't deserve to keep living. I think we need a societal shift in thinking to allow for a world that is coming, where basic needs for all ought to be met and our unique human experiences can be better spent - either with family, or exploring the cosmos, or building new inventions. It hasn't really been possible before that we are so close to building a society where few human jobs will be required to sustain our populations' needs.

jay_kyburz 7y ago
Yes, but the point I was trying to make was that I still think we will need an economy so that somebody will pay you study or be creative. Otherwise, what will you give the owners of the AI in trade for the new Phone / House / Holiday. People will probably still want to trade about 30-40 hours of time a week doing whatever utopian pursuit pays best. I think the transition from our current economy to this "post work" economy will be very interesting.
- AstralStorm 7y ago
  Someone has to provide you the basic materials and sustenance for any pursuit. Certain things will still be rare or kept that way for advantage...
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

Ghjklov 7y ago

On the other hand, I spend a lot of my time working to pay rent and feed myself. I'm not even alive, mostly dead inside. What more do I want when there's no time to do anything with more stuff?

claudiawerner 7y ago

> I have trouble imagining a future where people don't want to trade their time for more goods and services. New phones, nice holidays. Especially with the advertising industry constantly bombarding them with messages about how their lives could be better if they just spend a little more. This difficulty in imagining a qualitatively different future is what Mark Fisher called "capitalist realism". A changed society produces a changed population, and therefore a society without advertising will not have its members affected in the same compulsion as they are due to advertising today.