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I don't presume to know how shady the people in other industries are. I've met very few of them in advertising. Alas, they tend to be in the executive suite. (

I don't presume to know how shady the people in other industries are. I've met very few of them in advertising. Alas, they tend to be in the executive suite. (I suspect that's equally true in most industries, but that's pure speculation.) The vast majority of the actual people in this industry are good people who try their best to do good work. They're looking to make an honest buck and feel good about what they do. That said, Bernays is not someone I'd consider a role model.

wpietri 7y ago
Sure. I've known people who work in advertising. They all are pretty swell. They want to feel good about who they are and what they do. That's universal. Of course, I also once worked for what was basically a scam. As a teen, I answered an ad in the paper. We did telephone-based charity fundraising. Basically, telemarketing but "for good". Turns out the average amount passed on to charities was in the 10%-15% range. The rest, we kept. Those people also felt good about who they were and what they did. And there's no bottom to this. Scroll down here to the photo of a bunch of happy women on a day trip and see what their job was. These look like people who were trying their best to do good work. Who feel good about what they do. But what did they do? https://www.theguardian.com/books/gallery/2016/nov/22/nazis-retreat-ss-holiday-hut-auschwitz-pictures-mengele-photographs https://www.theguardian.com/books/gallery/2016/nov/22/nazis-... My point being that you can't evaluate the morality of of a group of people from inside the frame of that group. Humans can always find a way to justify whatever they're doing. Bad things aren't done mostly by bad people. They're done by good people in bad systems. And the harm is mostly seen as external to the system, perhaps even unrelated to it. As the study shows, advertising is intrinsically harmful to its viewers. But even if it weren't, it's enormously wasteful. It's mainly an arms race; companies mostly advertise because their competitors advertise. If we just banned it in the US, we'd have circa an extra $500 billion a year. That's free college for everyone, forever. (And that's not counting billions extra people would have from not buying stuff they don't really need or want.) And in my view, the industry is irredeemably immoral, because manipulating people to fill your pockets is wrong. People in the industry don't think so, of course, because they either change their thinking or don't stay in the industry. You may not see Bernays as your role model, but I think his work was foundational to the modern advertising industry. And as much as I dislike what he did, I'll give him credit for at least being clear-eyed about it. The only advertising people I know who can talk honestly and clearly about what the work means are the ones who've left the industry.
- nickelcitymario 7y ago
  Not much I can say to that if your view is to discount anything I say due to being inside the industry. Seems like you've given yourself an airtight excuse to not consider any counter argument.
  - wpietri 7y ago
    You didn't make a counter argument. You said the people were nice. I agreed, but said that doesn't matter, because plenty of nice people are part of terrible systems.
    - nickelcitymario 7y ago
      Would you have actually considered a counter argument? You've discounted anything I have to say because I'm in the industry. I don't even know why I'm responding to this, other than politeness.

wpietri 7y ago

Sure. I've known people who work in advertising. They all are pretty swell. They want to feel good about who they are and what they do. That's universal. Of course, I also once worked for what was basically a scam. As a teen, I answered an ad in the paper. We did telephone-based charity fundraising. Basically, telemarketing but "for good". Turns out the average amount passed on to charities was in the 10%-15% range. The rest, we kept. Those people also felt good about who they were and what they did. And there's no bottom to this. Scroll down here to the photo of a bunch of happy women on a day trip and see what their job was. These look like people who were trying their best to do good work. Who feel good about what they do. But what did they do? https://www.theguardian.com/books/gallery/2016/nov/22/nazis-retreat-ss-holiday-hut-auschwitz-pictures-mengele-photographs https://www.theguardian.com/books/gallery/2016/nov/22/nazis-... My point being that you can't evaluate the morality of of a group of people from inside the frame of that group. Humans can always find a way to justify whatever they're doing. Bad things aren't done mostly by bad people. They're done by good people in bad systems. And the harm is mostly seen as external to the system, perhaps even unrelated to it. As the study shows, advertising is intrinsically harmful to its viewers. But even if it weren't, it's enormously wasteful. It's mainly an arms race; companies mostly advertise because their competitors advertise. If we just banned it in the US, we'd have circa an extra $500 billion a year. That's free college for everyone, forever. (And that's not counting billions extra people would have from not buying stuff they don't really need or want.) And in my view, the industry is irredeemably immoral, because manipulating people to fill your pockets is wrong. People in the industry don't think so, of course, because they either change their thinking or don't stay in the industry. You may not see Bernays as your role model, but I think his work was foundational to the modern advertising industry. And as much as I dislike what he did, I'll give him credit for at least being clear-eyed about it. The only advertising people I know who can talk honestly and clearly about what the work means are the ones who've left the industry.

nickelcitymario 7y ago
Not much I can say to that if your view is to discount anything I say due to being inside the industry. Seems like you've given yourself an airtight excuse to not consider any counter argument.
- wpietri 7y ago
  You didn't make a counter argument. You said the people were nice. I agreed, but said that doesn't matter, because plenty of nice people are part of terrible systems.
  - nickelcitymario 7y ago
    Would you have actually considered a counter argument? You've discounted anything I have to say because I'm in the industry. I don't even know why I'm responding to this, other than politeness.