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First up: I just wanna say it wasn't my goal to be the defender of the ad industry. I started this comment thread to defend the idea of aspirations as a good th

First up: I just wanna say it wasn't my goal to be the defender of the ad industry. I started this comment thread to defend the idea of aspirations as a good thing. That being said: > The idea that this is you trying to go out and help people find and choose the best products for their needs is very naive. You're right, that would be naive. It's not what I said though. re: Review sites, word of mouth, contacting experts: That's all great. But to the business owner who's wondering how they're going to make payroll 3 months from now, that's not exactly helpful. Your recommendation to them is to just sit back and hope people stumble onto what they're selling? > You go on after this question to explain what manipulation is, so it seems like you understand the concept, and can probably figure out how it doesn't apply to this conversation. You haven't made any attempt to present the other side of the argument either. You say I'm dishonest for presenting my clients in the best possible light, yet you also pick and choose what to present in defence of your position. I'm fine with that, but it seems to me that if you held yourself to the same standard, you'd make an effort to consider the position of all the people involved in advertising. Maybe the world really would be better if it were free of advertising. I'm not sure. I don't think such a world has existed in thousands of years, but it'd be interesting to see. In the meantime, we live in a world where advertising does exist, and therefor it's foolish not to participate in it, because doing so would give your competitors an unfair advantage.

kerkeslager 7y ago
> First up: I just wanna say it wasn't my goal to be the defender of the ad industry. I started this comment thread to defend the idea of aspirations as a good thing. Okay, but I wasn't really attacking aspirations, either. I've criticized "conquering desire" before on HN as leading to useless monasticism. > re: Review sites, word of mouth, contacting experts: That's all great. But to the business owner who's wondering how they're going to make payroll 3 months from now, that's not exactly helpful. Your recommendation to them is to just sit back and hope people stumble onto what they're selling? No, I don't have a recommendation for them. I get it, business owners are somewhat forced to advertise, because their competitors are advertising. I'm saying that we as a society should not be pretending advertising is some positive thing, we should be removing advertising from our content, our public spaces, etc. Ultimately, this isn't necessarily bad for businesses. If advertising didn't exist and people found out about products by other means, businesses could compete on just producing the best products. > You haven't made any attempt to present the other side of the argument either. You say I'm dishonest for presenting my clients in the best possible light, yet you also pick and choose what to present in defence of your position. I'm fine with that, but it seems to me that if you held yourself to the same standard, you'd make an effort to consider the position of all the people involved in advertising. 1. Presenting all the opinions is not the same as presenting all the facts. In fact, presenting all opinions is counterproductive to providing a well-rounded summary of the facts: if you present flat earthers on the same level as cosmologists, you're dignifying non-truth as if it were truth. I'm not obligated to state opinions like "Advertisers are just trying to help you find what you want!" because that's just a lie, and stating it alongside the truth would make them seem like equal ideas. Leaving out incorrect opinions is not the same as leaving out facts. 2. Even if you could make it stick that I'm a hypocrite, so what? Just because someone is a hypocrite doesn't mean they're wrong. That's just an ad hominem attack on me. Let's stick to debating the topic, not my character. > In the meantime, we live in a world where advertising does exist, and therefor it's foolish not to participate in it, because doing so would give your competitors an unfair advantage. Sure--if you're a business owner it's foolish to play by the rules when nobody else is. But as humans and members of society, not as business owners, we can strive to create a world without advertising.
- nickelcitymario 7y ago
  Don't have much to say to most of this. Agree with some of it. > Let's stick to debating the topic, not my character. Read this thread and tell me the character of my industry in general and of myself specifically have not been the subject of debate. Attack my character and I consider it perfectly fair to attack yours. If the worst thing I've said about your character is that you're being hypocritical (and I think it is), I'd say you've taken fewer lumps than I have.
  - kerkeslager 7y ago
    Okay, sure. If you want to say I'm a hypocrite, fine. It's not a point I care to defend myself from. The fact still remains that the advertising industry is a blight on society.
    - nickelcitymario 7y ago
      I believe you've confused "fact" with "opinion", unless you're intentionally trying to deceive anyone reading this.
      - wpietri 7y ago
        Sorry, it's a fact. At the very best, the great bulk of it is unnecessary: companies advertise because their competitors advertise. If we just stopped, we'd have hundreds of billions to spend on something actually useful. And that's before we get to the harm caused. E.g., the harm documented in the study. Or the millions of people killed due to tobacco advertising.
        nickelcitymario 7y ago
        There's an awful lot of things I'd consider a "blight on society" but I never mistake my opinion as fact. When's the last time you saw an ad for tobacco? Is that still a thing in the states? We don't have that in Canada. (Even the packaging is legally required to be generic up here, and they have to be hidden behind a locked door.) There are ads for vaping products, though. I suspect they'll be outlawed soon.

kerkeslager 7y ago

> First up: I just wanna say it wasn't my goal to be the defender of the ad industry. I started this comment thread to defend the idea of aspirations as a good thing. Okay, but I wasn't really attacking aspirations, either. I've criticized "conquering desire" before on HN as leading to useless monasticism. > re: Review sites, word of mouth, contacting experts: That's all great. But to the business owner who's wondering how they're going to make payroll 3 months from now, that's not exactly helpful. Your recommendation to them is to just sit back and hope people stumble onto what they're selling? No, I don't have a recommendation for them. I get it, business owners are somewhat forced to advertise, because their competitors are advertising. I'm saying that we as a society should not be pretending advertising is some positive thing, we should be removing advertising from our content, our public spaces, etc. Ultimately, this isn't necessarily bad for businesses. If advertising didn't exist and people found out about products by other means, businesses could compete on just producing the best products. > You haven't made any attempt to present the other side of the argument either. You say I'm dishonest for presenting my clients in the best possible light, yet you also pick and choose what to present in defence of your position. I'm fine with that, but it seems to me that if you held yourself to the same standard, you'd make an effort to consider the position of all the people involved in advertising. 1. Presenting all the opinions is not the same as presenting all the facts. In fact, presenting all opinions is counterproductive to providing a well-rounded summary of the facts: if you present flat earthers on the same level as cosmologists, you're dignifying non-truth as if it were truth. I'm not obligated to state opinions like "Advertisers are just trying to help you find what you want!" because that's just a lie, and stating it alongside the truth would make them seem like equal ideas. Leaving out incorrect opinions is not the same as leaving out facts. 2. Even if you could make it stick that I'm a hypocrite, so what? Just because someone is a hypocrite doesn't mean they're wrong. That's just an ad hominem attack on me. Let's stick to debating the topic, not my character. > In the meantime, we live in a world where advertising does exist, and therefor it's foolish not to participate in it, because doing so would give your competitors an unfair advantage. Sure--if you're a business owner it's foolish to play by the rules when nobody else is. But as humans and members of society, not as business owners, we can strive to create a world without advertising.

nickelcitymario 7y ago
Don't have much to say to most of this. Agree with some of it. > Let's stick to debating the topic, not my character. Read this thread and tell me the character of my industry in general and of myself specifically have not been the subject of debate. Attack my character and I consider it perfectly fair to attack yours. If the worst thing I've said about your character is that you're being hypocritical (and I think it is), I'd say you've taken fewer lumps than I have.
- kerkeslager 7y ago
  Okay, sure. If you want to say I'm a hypocrite, fine. It's not a point I care to defend myself from. The fact still remains that the advertising industry is a blight on society.
  - nickelcitymario 7y ago
    I believe you've confused "fact" with "opinion", unless you're intentionally trying to deceive anyone reading this.
    - wpietri 7y ago
      Sorry, it's a fact. At the very best, the great bulk of it is unnecessary: companies advertise because their competitors advertise. If we just stopped, we'd have hundreds of billions to spend on something actually useful. And that's before we get to the harm caused. E.g., the harm documented in the study. Or the millions of people killed due to tobacco advertising.
      - nickelcitymario 7y ago
        There's an awful lot of things I'd consider a "blight on society" but I never mistake my opinion as fact. When's the last time you saw an ad for tobacco? Is that still a thing in the states? We don't have that in Canada. (Even the packaging is legally required to be generic up here, and they have to be hidden behind a locked door.) There are ads for vaping products, though. I suspect they'll be outlawed soon.