4 ms·

Is it possible the social support structure, education, etc are creating a society where unfortunate people don't have to steal/pawn to make a living?

by harikb 7y ago

peterhadlaw 7y ago
I think the point is that it's a cultural thing, regardless of how fortunate or unfortunate someone is.
9HZZRfNlpR 7y ago
I'm sure it plays a role, but there are countries with similar wealth and support systems, but so many things (like the lost property example) are unique to Japan.
- rsmckinney 7y ago
  It’s more to do with the purity of their culture resulting from low immigration which fosters a high level of mutual trust. Invariably immigration corrupts the hosting nation’s culture with trust absorbing the initial impact.
  - spats1990 7y ago
    "purity" is an odd word choice there when "homogeneity" or perhaps more neutrally "uniformity" are equally accurate. more broadly, when i see/hear this line deployed by westerners in regard to certain east asian countries, I always wonder if such westerners think such statements are generalisable to other nations, or if they have considered whether other specific cultural factors than uniformity are in play and causing/contributing heavily to the supposed higher level of mutual trust. It's my view that, other factors disregarded, having fewer cultural/ethnic outgroups does not magically result in higher levels of mutual trust in a society. After more than 4 years in Korea I am tired of westerners using Korean society as a shining beacon-like example of cultural/ethnic uniformity in order to air their beefs with immigration in their home countries (and no, that isn't how I interpreted the parent comment; just pursuing a line of thought). Another interesting thing to consider: the prevalence of general corporate and political malfeasance in Korea and Japan relative to their status as highly developed nations. Certainly no culture-driven concern for the wellbeing of countrymen there. edit: Ahh just looked at the parent poster's post history and am now happy to issue a big fat Never Mind. At least I got the thought out.
    - banmeagaindan2 7y ago
      > It's my view that, other factors disregarded, having fewer cultural/ethnic outgroups does not magically result in higher levels of mutual trust in a society. This is a classic scissor statement to use SlateStarCodex lingo.
      - spats1990 7y ago
        Late reply but thanks for that, I'm a casual reader of SSC and its satellite blogs but hadn't come across the Scissor one before.
livueta 7y ago
I'm a little skeptical. Many Japanese live in a pretty grinding form of underemployment poverty - "freeter" will get you lots of hits in Western media. Moreover, some truly deprived groups like the urban homeless are almost notorious for generally _not_ engaging in the sort of petty property crime we're talking about that's common in similar demographics in the West. Those make me lean towards cultural factors.
Reedx 7y ago
We tend to underestimate the effect culture can have. It's also why the Japanese don't litter their cities, despite few garbage bins. https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/07/why-japanese-dont-litter/ https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/07/why-japanese-dont-lit...
- johnchristopher 7y ago
  Yeah, well. Maybe, maybe not. Quoted from a previous discussion: > I was cycling in Japan for about 2 weeks, just a few weeks ago. I was also impressed in most places by how clean it was, not only in the cities, but more generally speaking about everywhere. > At some point though, I was cycling along the coast of Mie then Wakayama prefectures, and although the scenery and roads were clean, I had a glance just behind the ramp walk, and realized that behind the trees, in the bush next to the road were hundreds of garbage bags, litter of all sort, really anything, just lying below. There was such a contrast from what my eyes were seeing until, I was shocked. > In another town several kilometres after (I forgot which place exactly, must have been while cycling up towards Wakayama city), I passed next to a big commercial area on my right. On my left there was a small patch of forest then the sea and again, that forest contained many many plastic bags, full but neatly tied up, every couple of meters or so, for several hundreds of meters. > I originally thought the first thrashes I saw along the road in the country side where "mistakes", like things flying off the window or pushed by the wind from another place (although there was a lot of garbage anyway). But when I saw these tied up plastic bags, they weren't there by chance, really people throw these bags away on the forest right here. That made me a bit sad, especially since it broke the original image I got. > (And I haven't spoke about the beaches and seafront all along that peninsula; I wouldn't walk bare foot there). https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21240083 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21240083
  - Nition 7y ago
    When I was in Japan in 2009, every pedestrian in the cities waited patiently at each crossing until the light turned green, even if there were no cars around at all. However, when the streets were mostly empty, I saw one Japanese man come to an empty crossing, glance around, and cross on red. Can't generalize much off a single example, but it did make me think peer pressure is probably a factor.
TheTruth321 7y ago
Shame.
kstenerud 7y ago
No, it's a cultural thing. Home burglaries and thefts from cars and shops are fairly common, but you don't take unattended bags and such that are left in the open.

Is it possible the social support structure, education, etc are creating a society where unfortunate people don't have to steal/pawn to make a living?

by harikb 7y ago

Is it possible the social support structure, education, etc are creating a society where unfortunate people don't have to steal/pawn to make a living?

peterhadlaw 7y ago

I think the point is that it's a cultural thing, regardless of how fortunate or unfortunate someone is.

9HZZRfNlpR 7y ago

I'm sure it plays a role, but there are countries with similar wealth and support systems, but so many things (like the lost property example) are unique to Japan.

rsmckinney 7y ago
It’s more to do with the purity of their culture resulting from low immigration which fosters a high level of mutual trust. Invariably immigration corrupts the hosting nation’s culture with trust absorbing the initial impact.
- spats1990 7y ago
  "purity" is an odd word choice there when "homogeneity" or perhaps more neutrally "uniformity" are equally accurate. more broadly, when i see/hear this line deployed by westerners in regard to certain east asian countries, I always wonder if such westerners think such statements are generalisable to other nations, or if they have considered whether other specific cultural factors than uniformity are in play and causing/contributing heavily to the supposed higher level of mutual trust. It's my view that, other factors disregarded, having fewer cultural/ethnic outgroups does not magically result in higher levels of mutual trust in a society. After more than 4 years in Korea I am tired of westerners using Korean society as a shining beacon-like example of cultural/ethnic uniformity in order to air their beefs with immigration in their home countries (and no, that isn't how I interpreted the parent comment; just pursuing a line of thought). Another interesting thing to consider: the prevalence of general corporate and political malfeasance in Korea and Japan relative to their status as highly developed nations. Certainly no culture-driven concern for the wellbeing of countrymen there. edit: Ahh just looked at the parent poster's post history and am now happy to issue a big fat Never Mind. At least I got the thought out.
  - banmeagaindan2 7y ago
    > It's my view that, other factors disregarded, having fewer cultural/ethnic outgroups does not magically result in higher levels of mutual trust in a society. This is a classic scissor statement to use SlateStarCodex lingo.
    - spats1990 7y ago
      Late reply but thanks for that, I'm a casual reader of SSC and its satellite blogs but hadn't come across the Scissor one before.

livueta 7y ago

I'm a little skeptical. Many Japanese live in a pretty grinding form of underemployment poverty - "freeter" will get you lots of hits in Western media. Moreover, some truly deprived groups like the urban homeless are almost notorious for generally _not_ engaging in the sort of petty property crime we're talking about that's common in similar demographics in the West. Those make me lean towards cultural factors.

Reedx 7y ago

We tend to underestimate the effect culture can have. It's also why the Japanese don't litter their cities, despite few garbage bins. https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/07/why-japanese-dont-litter/ https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/07/why-japanese-dont-lit...

johnchristopher 7y ago
Yeah, well. Maybe, maybe not. Quoted from a previous discussion: > I was cycling in Japan for about 2 weeks, just a few weeks ago. I was also impressed in most places by how clean it was, not only in the cities, but more generally speaking about everywhere. > At some point though, I was cycling along the coast of Mie then Wakayama prefectures, and although the scenery and roads were clean, I had a glance just behind the ramp walk, and realized that behind the trees, in the bush next to the road were hundreds of garbage bags, litter of all sort, really anything, just lying below. There was such a contrast from what my eyes were seeing until, I was shocked. > In another town several kilometres after (I forgot which place exactly, must have been while cycling up towards Wakayama city), I passed next to a big commercial area on my right. On my left there was a small patch of forest then the sea and again, that forest contained many many plastic bags, full but neatly tied up, every couple of meters or so, for several hundreds of meters. > I originally thought the first thrashes I saw along the road in the country side where "mistakes", like things flying off the window or pushed by the wind from another place (although there was a lot of garbage anyway). But when I saw these tied up plastic bags, they weren't there by chance, really people throw these bags away on the forest right here. That made me a bit sad, especially since it broke the original image I got. > (And I haven't spoke about the beaches and seafront all along that peninsula; I wouldn't walk bare foot there). https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21240083 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21240083
- Nition 7y ago
  When I was in Japan in 2009, every pedestrian in the cities waited patiently at each crossing until the light turned green, even if there were no cars around at all. However, when the streets were mostly empty, I saw one Japanese man come to an empty crossing, glance around, and cross on red. Can't generalize much off a single example, but it did make me think peer pressure is probably a factor.

TheTruth321 7y ago

Shame.

kstenerud 7y ago

No, it's a cultural thing. Home burglaries and thefts from cars and shops are fairly common, but you don't take unattended bags and such that are left in the open.